VW Automatic Register

Technical forum => Technical => Topic started by: aberg83 on 20 June 2020, 16:38

Title: Trouble Shifting
Post by: aberg83 on 20 June 2020, 16:38
I just picked up a (new to me) 68 autostick convertible. It is the one featured in the Youtube channel www.youtube.com/garagetime (http://www.youtube.com/garagetime). The previous Owner documented his troubles with the original leaking transmission and then swapped in a spare that initially had the 'hockey stick' stuck in reverse and then upon fixing that, I understand from him that the transmission is no good. I bought the vehicle knowing that I would need to re-seal the original transmission (which he included) and swap it back in. Prior to doing this, I figured I would run through some troubleshooting steps just to be certain this was necessary and also just for my own learning benefit. I'm familiar with standard beetles, autostick is new to me.

With the engine off, I can run the shifter through all the gears. The solenoid at the control valve is good and clicks when touching the shifter. All hoses appear new. He refreshed the entire autostick setup and this is all covered in his Youtube channel. I had trouble getting the transmission to go into gear with the engine running. For the first time last night, after letting the engine warm up for a while, I was able to get it into a few of the gears. It eventually stalled on me, but I also need to do a tune-up as the car has sat for almost a year.

Given that I can run through the gears with the engine off, I suspect the transmission is okay. Also, given I was able to get it in gear a few times, I suspect the clutch assembly may be ok (if not just a little worn). When watching the clutch servo while my daughter was touching the gear shift, the arm only moves about 1/2". This seems too little. Perhaps the linkage just needs an adjustment.

Anything else I should try before re-sealing and swapping back in the original good transmission?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: sb001 on 20 June 2020, 21:46
The first and easiest thing to check is the contact gap in the base of the shifter, however if your clutch servo arm is always moving when you (or your daughter) touch the gear shifter then that should be OK.
Then, test the clutch servo for a vacuum leak. You can do this with the canister in the car, but IMO a bit easier to do with it out of the car, just a few mounting bolts and the pivot pin holding the servo arm to the clutch arm.
Keep your thumb over the spigot where the vacuum hose attaches, pull outward on the canister arm and see if sucks back into the canister. If so the diaphragm inside the canister is shot and will need to be replaced. Several vendors sell repair kits.
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: aberg83 on 22 June 2020, 16:38
You nailed it. The diaphragm in the servo had come loose from the seam. It was actually intact. I re-installed it and voila! All is well. Thanks!
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: 68autobug on 24 June 2020, 14:34
Quote from: aberg83 on 22 June 2020, 16:38
You nailed it. The diaphragm in the servo had come loose from the seam. It was actually intact. I re-installed it and voila! All is well. Thanks!

Well that is a weird problem....  it must have been repaired at some time ????
I have a repair kit for the clutch servo plus 2 spares...

Lee in Australia..

Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: aberg83 on 24 June 2020, 14:37
Quote from: 68autobug on 24 June 2020, 14:34
Quote from: aberg83 on 22 June 2020, 16:38
You nailed it. The diaphragm in the servo had come loose from the seam. It was actually intact. I re-installed it and voila! All is well. Thanks!

Well that is a weird problem....  it must have been repaired at some time ????
I have a repair kit for the clutch servo plus 2 spares...

Lee in Australia..

Yes, the previous Owner rebuilt it not long ago and swapped into onto a different transmission. While doing that, it must have been pulled loose. I made sure it is nice and tight. Works great!
Title: Trouble Shifting
Post by: muirfollower on 28 March 2021, 23:08
Hello Everyone,

I am piggybacking on this older topic, because i feel like i am having similar situation as the posting. I have 71 Super Beetle, that was not running when i purchased it. After new plugs, engine oil, transmission fluid, adjusting the distributor(original) with new points and condenser, and an aftermarket 34 PICT( vac. port added per the DIY here on the forum) it's most what running. It's similar to the posting in that, with the engine off i can move the shifter to all gears. With the engine running(once i get it running) i only have neutral, there's no movement at all when trying to shit to the forward gears, and i don't try to force it, and that's applying downward pressure to the top of the shifter.
Here is is the difference though( and i don't what normal should be) with the engine off, ignition on, i can hear a "click" when move the shifter to a forward gear, BUT it "clicks" after it goes into the gear not before. Is this normal?
I haven't changed the 12mm hoses they are what came with the car, i swapped out the original solenoid valve( no change) and i haven't gotten underneath to look at the vacuum canister servo( i thnk i have a spare)
I had a previous Super Beetle here on the VWAR, but it was loaded with rust and rot so i had to part ways with it in order to buy this one, which is much better shape :) I really want to save it, drive it enjoy it, so any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

thanks!
Andrew


Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: 68autobug on 29 March 2021, 05:01
When You move the gear shifter slightly in any gear You should hear the click of the clutch being operated.... BEFORE it goes into gear... You  may need to adjust the points in the gear shifter... or the nylon bush below the gear shifter may need to be replaced... they will be worn out by now... white nylon bushing... vey cheap to buy... a bit difficult to fit... lubricate with grease ...  so, what is happening to Yours is that the clutch servo control valve isn't operating when You first move the gear shifter... No Click.. it should click as soon as You move the gear shifter forwards or backwards.... it shouldn't click if moved sideways... the vacuum hoses should be replaced.. You cannot see the cracks in the cotton covered hose... I use 12mm truck rubber pressure hose...  I don't actually hear a click when the shifter is moved with the ignition switched on, but I hear the noise of the clutch servo working... which is probably louder than the click of the control valve...  You don't seem to have any vacuum in the vacuum tank, so that means a leaking hose somewhere....  so once You have replaced all the vacuum hoses , maybe it will work ok ????? 


Lee in Australia
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: muirfollower on 29 March 2021, 17:03
Thanks Lee, good to hear from you! As a plan, I think I will attempt to adjust the contact point in the shifter first, there is a how to here on the forum? Then I will try and reach the canister under the car, I have it up on jack supports(again), I think I have spare one in my pile of parts. And then order up some of the CohLine 12mm brake booster hose, maybe 6 feet(?) from Amazon

If a hose had fallen off say from the canister would it be loud and obvious if the engine were running?

I agree about the nylon bushing, I did a new one once before( in a stick shift) and destroyed it and my hands in the process of trying to get it in, must be a better way...

Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: 68autobug on 30 March 2021, 13:45
Yes, it seems to be a problem with the contact points in the shifter... the points maybe pitted etc.. or just worn ??  the contact should close as soon as you move the gear shifter forwards or backwards.... so the clutch is engaged so you can shift the gears.... place my points in the shifter and I did find it a bit fiddly to adjust.... but not impossible/...  the gap needs to be very close... the cotton covered hose that vw used is very prone to crack after 30++ years of service... so it can be difficult to find... I don't think you will find any hoses loose..   if you need to replace that bush [luckily I haven't needed to replace one as yet - keep them greased] but from all accounts , it is very difficult...   now measuring the clutch adjuster is nearly impossible.. I made two of the measuring bits that are shown in manuals but never did any good... so I always just keep the adjuster so You can select reverse without crunching.... adjusting about 1/2 a turn a time when you can select gears....
best of luck...
Lee in Australia



Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: muirfollower on 30 March 2021, 16:10
Appreciate it Lee, in the box of spares that came with the car was a canister, I suspect was the original vacuum canister servo and it did not hold a vacuum ( pulled up on pin/sleeve and finger over the port) so I got to wonder about what is under the car on top of the A/S Transmission? Reached up to the canister and the hose was absolutely loose on the VC fitting, no pressure fitment at all. Turns out the hose are aftermarket, not the originals. So now my plan to try and put a hose clamp on it and see what happens and try and adjust the contact point in the shifter( also got a spare shifter from a friend as a backup)

thanks!
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: 68autobug on 30 March 2021, 21:10
Yes, the normal hose , [I used truck/trailer brake hose 12mm id] and it is a good fit although I do use good hose clamps on the hoses...  Problem that so many things can get changed over the years....


Lee in Australia.. RHD  1500 1968 semi auto Beetle..
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: volkenstein on 01 April 2021, 03:37
muirfollower,
                 Make sure it is the re-inforced type. Search on posts here - common problem. Normal hose collapses. Also - check that the spigot itself is not loose. Happened on a vac can I bought second hand. Peined it and sealed it stopped the leak.

HTH
Volkenstein
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: muirfollower on 10 April 2021, 22:35
Thanks for all the help from everyone, I check the points clean them reset the gap, and did find out that the hose was completely loose on the canister underneath the car used to clamp on it to tighten it up and it's very secure before doing that check that it held a vacuum which it does finger over the spicket method. Still no dice as far as being able to get it in gear with the engine running. But.. I did notice that when I tried to put it in reverse with the engine running it grinds and I don't push the issue I just back off. The aftermarket carburetor that I drilled out for the port I noticed something with the engine running I hooked up a vacuum dial to it and it shows zero vacuum would this be considered normal?
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: volkenstein on 13 April 2021, 09:21
muirfollower,
                  At idle, the CV port should show next to nothing.   Check when engine is running off idle. 5 in/hg is all it takes to work the CV. Speaking of which - adjusted to spec? start point 2 1/2 threads exposed on the adjuster. You need to test your CV can hold 5 in/hg vacuum too.

You grind in reverse - you need to adjust the CV servo arm (that connects to the clutch arm) for freeplay. Sounds like you have too much. Search here and the OLD forum.

HTH
Volkenstein
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: muirfollower on 13 April 2021, 22:31
Ok, thanks on the 34 pict vacuum port and the Control valve is the original, still has the little protective cap on top, screw measurement is about 2 & 1/2+ threads exposed on top.
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: muirfollower on 26 April 2021, 21:09
Lee Volkstein appreciate the help since your responses. I got new brake booster hose in from Amazon over this weekend( Cohline 12mm ) and replaced the old stuff. Got the engine to run tried the shifter, same deal as before. BUT I went under and stared @ the VCanister again and have questions. I unscrewed the coupling and was moving the shifter arm and noticed that when it is disconnected from the coupling, it moves maybe an inch inch and 1/2  back and forth, before stopping in each direction, is this correct?  And this back and forth movement is loose not like a stick shift which is spring loaded, I think?  In any event, I put the coupling back on and screwed it in the VC quite a bit and was going to try and start the engine again. With the ignition "on", I heard a "click" from the back and also a vacuum sound, like that of a wounded goose or cow. Is this normal, good or bad? After that, the battery died, and it's back on the trickle charger

Later
Andrew
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: volkenstein on 29 April 2021, 05:30
Andrew,
           Duck fart or dying cow noise is OK. BUT - just turning Ign on? = NO. Your wiring is earthing somewhere.
Now, doing this blind...the Vac Can arm normally resides sort of 1/2 in 1/2 out "at rest" in the servo can (see checkers post 3 or 5 topics down for help). I really can't tell what you have loosened, so set that short servo arm to the desired length. THEN - you check where the trans/clutch arm meets resistance (moving toward front of car) - push it (the eye) so it is back about 8mm. Then connect the two (servo arm "at rest" & clutch arm. That is a good enough for a start. Test drive (after your electrical tracing :) ) and when you are happy - tighten those arm connections.

HTH
Volkenstein
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: muirfollower on 11 May 2021, 19:06
Thanks Volkstein, I haven't had much time since the last posting to dig deeper into but on the safe side I went ahead and ordered last week, a new contact point wire that I will work soon (came in the mail yesterday). And just for poops and giggles, ordered a servo canister diaphragm to rebuild the spare one I have that was already cracked. I have theortical question about the earthing you mentioned, and I think I saw a reply in a posting  awhile back with the same question. BUT theoretically if you ran a continuous wire from the shifter contact point, straight back to the control valve( bypass the neutral safety switch) what would happen? just wondering...
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: volkenstein on 16 May 2021, 16:49
muirfollower,
                  Not much except you now have the ability (for better or worse) to shift/start in gear, the only thing I can't quite remember is the whether the NSS is also tied to the starter circuit somehow.

HTH
Volkenstein
Title: Re: Trouble Shifting
Post by: muirfollower on 01 June 2021, 17:38
Hi Everyone, I have great news and wanted to let you all know that there is now another running, driving (somewhat) Autostick on the Registry!  A friend of mine here in Salisbury, who has four VW bugs,  came by this past Saturday morning to lend a 2nd pair of eyes to my cause. I showed Eric what was happening before we got started, i.e. engine running, trying to shift into gear, etc. Turned it off, disconnected the battery.  Eric brought over his Bentley manual and with my Haynes manual we went through and re-read the setup for the canister in the SBeetle, using my spare as an example.  I took your suggestions with the jumper lead for the neutral safety switch and we got under and setup the canister as best as possible. AND the last thing we did was put the rear on jacks and removed the wheels. Got it running again in neutral and immediately I could feel a difference, we tried reverse first and it went in with grinding, but I didn't feel anything and Eric said give it some gas! And voila, the wheels started turning and that's when I realized the rear brakes were probably frozen or very tight; the drums were grinding on the shoes while in reverse and other gears. So we adjusted the rear shoes. got wheels back on and it's moving in Reverse and Low Drive in the alleyway, Up next, a complete brake job and I will plug back in the NSS, to see if that was part of the problem or just the stuck brakes.

Thanks again for the help and I'll keep you updated