i know this has been covered, but i need some info on how to get my first range working again. when i first got tranny working, i had it, but it would slip when first engaging. now i have nothing at all. all other gears work fine. some things i have already done are; adjusting clutch freeplay, and moving shifter plate. i have also installed all new vac. hoses, and brand new servo.
Hiya 74,
Try checking your shift coupler. Whenever you move the shift lever the shift coupler should transfer the movement of the shift rod to the hockey stick EXACTLY. There should be no deviance back and forth or laterally.
Also take a hard look at your front shift bushing. This little plastic piece is pretty notorious for causing shifting problems in both manuals and AutoSticks.
i tried playing with this thing last night with no luck. i even went as far as to remove the coupler from the hockey stick and tried shifting using a pair of vicegrips. i am wondering if it isnt in the tranny itself, maybe a synchro. i guess i will try the bushings first since they are 35 years old. where do i find these parts?
Hiya 74,
Here's what you might need..............
http://www.oeveedub.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=oe&Product_Code=111-798-259A&Category_Code=bug-shifter
The AutoStick uses the same shift bushing as the manual. These bushings are available just about anywhere online.
the white bush and ring that is just below the gaershifter base just inside the tunnel..
make sure its greased with lithium based moly ..
Not Sure what gear You are having the problem with:
Gears are LOW -- DRIVE 1 -- DRIVE 2 ---
Low is usually the problem gear ..
IT get reverse Gear You HAVE to push the handle DOWN and forward..
once you can select reverse gear OK
You adjust the clutch adjuster until You can hear the reverse gear crunching slightly
then turn the adjuster about half a turn.. lock the nut and ss how you go..
If You have to push down on the lever to find reverse... great..
Now see if you can find LOW gear.... without crunching...
LEE
my problem is drive 1. it feels like it is going into gear, but it is obviously not. also, i dont have to push down on my shifter to get reverse. is that a sign of another problem? all other gears are working just fine. that is why i am getting a little concerned. if that plastic bushing is worn out in the shifter, will all other gears still work? another thing is that when i first bought this car, it would crunch hard going into any gear (vac. hoses) could i have damaged the gears that badly. i only shifted it into gear like this one time to move it, but it is hard to tell what the p.o. did to it.
Hiya 74,
Quote from: 74soup on 13 March 2009, 17:17 .......i dont have to push down on my shifter to get reverse. is that a sign of another problem?
Sign of another problem? It's possible. But not having to depress the shift lever and difficulty finding ranges (as well as a funky shift pattern) can be symptoms of a worn out shift bushing.
Quote.....if that plastic bushing is worn out in the shifter, will all other gears still work?
No hard and fast answer to this one. Perhaps you will be able to engage the ranges, perhaps not. Think of it this way.......the shift rod has to be oriented to the shift coupler (and the hockey stick) rather precisely. Once one thing is is a bit out (say, for example, your shift bushing) that will put more pressure on that precise alignment. Consequently, there will be more pressure on your shift coupler and, eventually, it too will wear out of spec further influencing your ability to shift correctly.
Quote.....another thing is that when i first bought this car, it would crunch hard going into any gear (vac. hoses) could i have damaged the gears that badly. i only shifted it into gear like this one time to move it, but it is hard to tell what the p.o. did to it.
Not likely. These transmissions are pretty hardy builds.
I think Your major problem is the shaft bushing in the tunnel..
which is letting the shaft drop down too low
and thats what is causing Your problem..
the nylon bushing is under $10..
You also need a ring to go over the bush..
cheers
LEE
.
thanx guys. i ordered both the bushing and a new coupler for the hockey stick today, and will fill you in later on the results. thanx again
finally changed out the shift bushing and coupler, and still cant get 1st range . now what? anyone else ever have this problem?
oh yea, and i still dont have to push down to get reverse. is there some kind of adjustment that i need to do after putting everything back together?
Hiya 74,
And your shift coupler is doing its job in transferring the exact movement of the shift rod to the hockey stick?
You mentioned that you went at the hockey stick with a pair of vice grips. Were you able to locate all four "slots" when you did this?
You might want to try tweaking your shift plate. My First range is a bit screwy. It runs diagonally off toward the passenger's knee. And it is VERY easy to lose altogether by moving the shift plate just a little.
You need to give all of this a try before you seriously start thinking about problems inside the case. If everything does check out in the shift transfer system, then it's time to consider pulling the tranny.
the new bushing and coupler are doing the job as far as movement. it even feels like it is going into first range, but the car doesnt move at all in that gear. there is no grinding or anything. with the car at a stop with the e-brake pulled,i can shift into every other gear and feel the car move. i am going to try the shift plate again, but i have already been messing with that with no results. also , what is up with the no push down reverse thing? kind of puzzling.
Hi
the push down thing allows you to change gears without hitting reverse gear..
this is the way all VWs came from the factory...
If the reverse lockout isn't working
its very easy to select reverse...
it probably wouldn't matter with Our autosticks as reverse is away from the other gears
but its very easy in manual cars..
If You loosen the two shifter base bolts
You should be able to find First Range [Drive One]
If You do, at least you will know it will work
and the problem IS the lockout plate...
cheers
LEE
Hiya 74,
Yeah, I'm with Lee.
After I had my shift lever out, I had a devil of a time finding all the ranges again. And I have to tell you that one of the symptoms I ran into while moving shift plate around was exactly what you are experiencing right now. Then I messed around with it some more and I got to the point where I could depress the knob for Reverse, but I also had to depress the knob for Low! Very touchy!
I stuck with it and finally got back to my "regular" shift pattern.
ok, ive tried movin the shift plate several times, with no change. ive even tried shifting while the plate is loose to try and find first and still no luck. is it possible that first is just not there anymore? when i first got this thing running, i did have the gear. but even when it was there it seemed like the clutch was slipping real bad until it caught, but like i said, it was there. is there anything special i need to know about the spring? could the shift rod be worn out? is the hockey stick ok? i have worn myself out trying to fix this, and my patience are running out. its a shame too, because this car is in such great shape.
74,
Couple of things..as has been mentioned, these transmissions tend not to have the rate of expiry that manual ones do. Yes they can and do fail but it isn't common. We're trying to examine all possibilities on your behalf so you're not faced with pulling the box and going shopping for a second hand one. It still may come to that though....
Shift rod worn? The one in the tunnel? Doubt it as you can get most gears. Hockey stick? The same answer. R1/R2 are on the same internal shift rod and R1 is pushed INTO the gearbox for selection, R2 pulled OUT.
R1/R2 are however using a common synchro assembly which may be a dud....a lot of brass shavings on the drain plate would be cause for alarm. R1/R2 selector fork could be completely knackered too...
So..If R1 is the problem yet you can get all other gears...it all sounds like a P.O. tried something bright with the stop plate and re-installed it incorrectly. A bit worrying is the no-push-for-reverse. IIRC I think the same pretty much has to happen to get "Park"
Have you tried running the R1 gear with the shifter in place but no stop plate installed? Be careful trying this. Although the interlock mechanism is supposed to prevent dual engagement, locking the shift rods seems to occur.
What about the "Park" position? Your box should have this function if the G'box is original to the car.
Trans mount OK?? (the finest straw clutching now ;D)
I'll ponder some more and if the 5 watt bulb comes on again, I'll post up. In the meantime, fix your flagging spirits with some unhealthy sized slugs of "mother's ruin"...I can understand the frustration, but as I've said to others...walk away for a while, clear the head, hook back into it and if it comes to naught so be it.
Regards
Volkenstein
again, last night i tried moving the plate around with no results. i have not tried taking the shift plate out completely. i will give that a try next. i do have park, and i do have to push down to get it there. i am planning on dropping the drain plate shortly to check for shavings. if i do find something in there, is there anyone out there who sells parts for this thing? this is just so frustrating. i have already dropped a lot of coin on this thing, but i really like the car and would love to get it right.
74,
Luckily the internals are pretty much the same as a manual box. The real problem is some seals are NLA so the shop of your choice had best be careful taking it apart. Coin is up to you. You'll never get a 100% fully reco unit because of said seals so price may be determined on your negotiating skills. From what I read on other forums, places like Longenterprises, German Transaxles (chat with them) etc are a good bet. EVWPARTS will do one (they have a core charge) for 695.00 .
TheSamba classifieds for a second hand one?. Russ Wolfe has made mention he has Autostick stuff, he may have a '74 lying around. I can't remember their usernames, but Nampa, Idaho or Ashland, Nebraska fellas have a fair bit lying around. Risky, but you may get away with a good 'un and have a fatter wallet...
HTH
Volkenstein
also i have not yet changed out the tranny mount. could this also be causing me problems?
Hiya 74,
Quote from: volkenstein on 31 March 2009, 13:16 .......these transmissions tend not to have the rate of expiry that manual ones do. Yes they can and do fail but it isn't common. We're trying to examine all possibilities on your behalf so you're not faced with pulling the box and going shopping for a second hand one. It still may come to that though....
That's an important thought to keep in mind. We're trying to get you out of your situation without having to do anything too drastic - if conditions warrant. You may wind up pulling that tranny, but it has been our experience here at VWAR that this is most often not needed. We want to make sure you have checked out all the more likely (and easier to fix) possibilities before you ever have to get into the case. The downside of this is that it takes patience. Sometimes a lot of patience - adjusting that *%#@* shift plate can be a bear. Hang in there.
While the tranny mount could be causing problems in locating ranges (and it is most certainly worth checking out!) it is not the most probable cause of such problems.
ok, i am getting ready to start moving the plate around again. is there any good starting point that i should be aware of?
'74,
The Bentley Bibles & others say to select "L" first, verifying that the gearstick is aligned with the centre of the tunnel, but tilted back slightly. I have never adjusted a stop plate but I would imagine the next port of call would be R1.
Mike in particular has had more fun 'n' games in this regard due to "oddities" he discovered with his gearstick shift rod.
Just on that rod, if the trans is in neutral where does the "cup" sit in relation to the gearstick hole??
Oh, I would also drop the spring off near the shifter coupling if one is fitted (use looped wire..don't want that sucker dropping off it's little bracket inside the pan!!).
No point doing finicky adjustments while the spring is pulling the shift rod toward R1/R2 constantly....
HTH
Volkenstein
Hiya 74,
You have probably already figured out this out for yourself, but if not......................
Since the pivot point of the gear shift lever is above the shift plate that means the actual position of the shift lever ball in the shift rod cup will be the exact opposite of where the shift lever knob is. For example, when you have shifted into Low the cup on the shift rod is forward and to the right. Takes a minute or two to visualize, but once you have that down it can help you with doing adjustments to the shift plate.
i am going to check out the cup in relation to the shifter hole tomorrow. 6 month old baby boy takes first priority over 35 year old vw. if you can think of anything else till then, feel free to fill me in.
ive had it with this pos. i moved the shift plate every possible direction.what else do i have to do? when i move the shift rod without the shifter installed, it looks as though it turns farther than the shifter would allow. is it really that hard to find second gear after that shift plate has been moved? i have taken the plate out completely, and moved the shifter in every possible direction, still nothing. no second gear sux. is it possible that something else needs to be adjusted outside of the shifter mechanism itself? clutch freeplay? whatever? i think i am going to stick a toothpick in my eye now and break it off. i think that would be much more fun than working on this problem.
'74,
The stop plate limits travel so you are able to select gears accurately. I have been thinking maybe a P.O. at some point cursed you by grabbing whatever stop plate and bunging it in. You say you've tried it out without the plate and still no joy...the only thing I can think of is the shift rod itself. I see that "joncron" has joined up. He owns a '74 A-S but converting to manual. I PM'd him on TheSamba to ask various questions including shift rod length...no answer thus far. Re-reading the posts up to this point..just one question - you keep saying "First". Do you mean "L" , the gear that is pull-left-then-pull-down or "R1" which is push-right-push-up?
Anyway...it is definitely sounding nastier..the only suggestion I have left is to drop the shift rod off the coupler and then try and select all gears. If you can't find them all like that...deffo have internal problems...then
Given Joncron is converting a '74 A-S, could be a good time to pick up his box?
Regards
Volkenstein
what is really blowing my mind, is that i had the gear prior to all of this madness,and it just disappeared. that is why i am leaning toward a problem in the tranny itself. when i did have the gear, as i stated prior, it felt like the clutch was slipping before it would engage. then it would be fine. but it was in second gear only. second meaning r1 not L not r2, up and to the right. i am thinking that joncron is making a smart move.
'74,
Up to you. Head on over to TheSamba in the late model bug forum and inside the "index to interesting tech articles" sticky post there is a link to A-S to 4 Speed conversion which will tell you all you need to know (and buy).
Regards
Volkenstein
i will figure out what is wrong with this thing before i decide on a swap. i am just very frustrated, and i feel like i have made every adjustment possible. i just dropped the shift rod from the hockey stick, and i think i did find my lost gear, but i am not quite sure. could it be my shift rod?
'74,
Quoteand i think i did find my lost gear
. Not to upset a frustrated bloke...but you'd best be 100%. I can suggest hooking up the shift rod with the car in R1 (no spring!), then put the stop plate and gearstick on in such a fashion that you KNOW R1 and neutral can be selected.
Shift to neutral, try and shift back to R1. If that is all OK, snug the bolts, shift to Neutral, start the car and try and get R1 again. If it selects OK, brakes on and rev the motor. If the gear holds then you have a rod/stop plate issue.
HTH
Volkenstein
are you saying that i should leave the shift rod off, and try to find r1 again? and then after that put the shift rod on again with the trans. still in r1, and also put the shifter back together. if so, that seems like it could work, if i can somehow lock it into r1.
'74,
You got it. Get R1 without the shift rod, then bolt it all up afterwards while it's still in R1.
You have to select Neutral to start the car unless you want to take the time to fab up a wiring bypass.
Regards
Volkenstein
sounds good. i will give this a shot tomorrow. i will post again tomorrow with the results.
well i think i have officially figured out that i do not and will not have second gear. i took off the coupler from the hockey stick, and used vice grips to shift while pushing down on the shifter to engage the clutch, and could not find it. it goes into the slot, but i got nothing. now what? anybody with any suggestions?
Hiya 74,
Second? Just for the sake of semantics and communication............
REVERSE FIRST
H
LOW SECOND
I had thought that it was First that you were having a problem with.
It sounds as if you were under the car with a helper inside at the shift lever. It also sounds as if you were trying to shift while the engine was running. True?
If so, you might want to try the process with the engine off, bypass the nuetral safety switch, and start it in gear (with the rear wheels raised).
i say second, but it is first range. i clamped a pair of vice grips to the hockey stick. and while i was shifting with the grips, i was also pushing on the shifter to engage the clutch. a little dangerous, maybe. but i have a really good e-brake. can find every other gear, no problem.
'74,
Car going or not? Does it "go in" to R1 but nothing happens?
From my perspective (16,000 Klm's away), I call the trans internally bad. I've run out of ideas as well for the time being.
Maybe PM "Bruce" with a link to this thread and get his opinion. He's a trans guy (professional). You can find him in the transaxle forum of www.shoptalkforums.com as well.
I had a look on my ETKA program, and sure enough the lazy swine's show the old style gearbox and internals for every year,
not the "park" featured ones. At least the pinion bearing info DID change. I looked as far as '79 models.
Regards
Volkenstein
it does go into R1, and yes nothing happens? i am just going to drive it as is for now until i get enough time to pull it out. after i figure out exactly what is wrong, i will make a decision on swapping it out or fixing the problem.
so i pulled the engine and tranny on my car today, and when i removed the housing for the hockeystick, i found that the end of it to be quite worn. could this be my problem? i have another gear cluster sitting here just waiting to go in, but if it just needs a new hockeystick, then i will hold off. has anyone ever ran into this situation?
well, i swapped out the gear cluster, and finally got my first range working. but during the process of removal my torque converter didnt fall out completely, but came apart enough to lose alot of fluid. now with everything back together the clutch is slipping really bad. is there something i need to do to get the converter working properly? it is full of fluid. also i adjusted clutch freeplay.another thing is that i pressure washed this tranny before installation,as it was still leaking fluid from the torque converter.how about oil on the clutch ? any suggestions?
I made the same mistake when I pulled my engine. That is I pulled the torque convertor off with the engine. When the TQ comes off it's a good idea to replace the seal behind it. Otherwise you may get a leak. At any rate it looks like you'll need to pull the tranmision to find the source of the fluid. Here's a link for the seal.
http://www.airheadparts.com/viewDetail.asp?strMasterCat=4454&idproduct=6361
(make sure you order the correct style)
When you install it, you'll also want to peen the edge of the seal to prevent it from coming loose. Do a search of this site. It's been discussed numerous times.
The slipping is normally associated with low ATF levels. Double check your fluid level.
i actually had overfilled it initially. i checked all of the lines to make sure they werent clogged up. i had good flow. so it seems as though the fluid level is good. could there be air in the system? i really dont want to tear this thing apart again, so i am trying to eliminate all possibilities. if there is fluid on the clutch, shouldnt it burn off eventually?
Hello Soup, You can't get oil on the clutch disk from that side of the transmission. The torque converter is separated from the clutch by an internal(to the trans) seal. Make sure (again) that you have return flow into the tank from the torque converter. (look down the neck of the tank with a flashlight and see). Letting the car run in neutral for maybe five minutes should fill up the torque converter if it is not full already. If you are saying that you got oil on the clutch when doing the gear swap, that would be a different thing altogether. If it is ATF it probably will not burn off and you would have to spray the clutch and disk and drive plate with some brake kleen once apart. :-\ Can you feel the trans engage but it does not have enough strength to move the car? Can you feel the release arm moving the throwout bearing back and forth? Disconnected from the servo, the arm should move at least 1/2 inch. It would be real easy for the release arm to have slipped out of the bearing during installation and that would cause the disk to never engage completely. Let us know what you find out and good luck!
i checked again, and i dont think there is any fluid going back to the tank. so where is it going, as i have good pressure from my pump.
ok, it is confirmed that there is no fluid going back to tank from the converter. i also took off the hose between the pump and the torque converter, and i blew through it with my air compressor. now when i did this, it felt like it was clogged up, but i eventually did here air at the atf tank. i was putting a lot of pressure through this hose. is that normal, or should it flow freely?
'74,
You disconnected at the trans AND the tinware, ie took it off? And it's clogged? If not, what exactly is disconnected when you blow air through?
The hoses should be free and clear of ANY clogging, regardless.
If at all possible, try not to send more than 50 psi through the system. 52 is max pressure that the TC seal should deal with.
X2 for Green's advice.
Let us know what happens.
Regards
Volkenstein
what needs to be done if the release arm did come off the bearing during installation?
Hiya 74,
I'm guessing that, from the way in which your question is worded, the clutch arm and its pivot shaft were not marked prior to its removal. If that is the case then you'll have to do a bit of "guess work" and use the clutch freeplay adjusting sleeve to tweak and fine tune the clutch adjustment.
The guess work...... The clutch arm needs to go on the pivot shaft so that it is angled out towards the inspection window on the left side of the transmission. Take a look at this borrowed picture......
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/Bug/1581141.jpg)
You also need to understand that the clutch arm needs to be in position so that the clutch adjusting rod needs to be pulled out in order to engage it. In other words, install the clutch servo in place. Then position the clutch arm on the pivot so that the connecting eye on the end of the clutch arm is about 1 inch forward of the end of the clutch servo adjusting rod. This will put the proper tension on the clutch servo adjusting rod (and its internals).
Once you get everything up and running you will have to come back to the clutch servo adjusting rod and adjust the clutch freeplay.
the clutch arm was never removed from the trans. when i removed it. i only removed the servo. my #1 question is why do i not have flow back to tank from my t/c? i have tried adjusting the clutch freeplay with no effect at all on the problem. it still revs really high before the car will move.
Hiya 74,
Whoops! Looks like I misread your previous post.
Insofar as the blockage goes..............were it me, I'd remove the return hose and check it out. By the way, replacements for that hose are not hard to find.
is it possible that while the engine was off, the t/c was somehow not aligned properly which might not allow fluid to flow properly? like i stated previously, the t/c did move off of the transmission some allowing the loss of a considerable amount of fluid.
Hiya 74,
Is it possible? Well, I guess just about anything is possible. But............assuming that the torque converter is in its proper position now, it's very unlikely there is a blockage in the flow at that point. Much more likely is that the torque converter seal should be replaced.
In the case of a blockage back to the ATF tank, the prime suspect would be the return hose. These rubber pressure hoses fail from the inside out just as a rubber brake line hose would. Petro based products like ATF or brake fluid will eventually get the better of rubber. They will look absolutely normal on the outside but the swelling of material closes off the inside diameter restricting the flow of fluid. Better than "possible" I would think that this would be probable.
i will pull off the hoses and check again, and will be posting later on the results. it is strange, because it all worked before i swapped out the gear cluster. well, everything except 1sr range that is.
Hey 74soup, If you have pressure and no return flow to the tank then a couple of things are possible. Make sure(again) that anything you used to keep the hoses from pouring fluid when you removed the engine have been removed. I remember someone who went quite some time before rechecking and that was the problem all along. (I have used lots of different ways of keeping the fluid in... Plastic bags, rubber plugs, golf tees , pencils etc and any of those left in the line will obstruct the flow). Second is to be sure that the hoses are connected to the trans correctly. Banjo bolts and sealing washers. I can't remember at this time but I think you could reverse those lines and that would prevent return while still having pressure(pump trying to fill the t/c while the t/c works against the pump). So make sure those are properly reconnected and let us know what comes up. Good luck again.
As far as the t/c not going back in place, either the engine would not meet up with the transmission or the t/c rotor could be bound on the input shaft of the trans which would strip the input shaft and possible the t/c rotor(inside piece of the t/c,, may not be proper name for the vw). Neither of these would cause a lack of return flow. So making sure that the lines are going to the proper places is my best guess, secondly something left in the line. Don't give up on it, you will figure it out!
Hiya green,
Quote from: greenghia on 25 April 2009, 02:18 ........I can't remember at this time but I think you could reverse those lines and that would prevent return while still having pressure(pump trying to fill the t/c while the t/c works against the pump). So make sure those are properly reconnected and let us know what comes up. Good luck again.
Well, no worry on that account. The bolts holding the ATF lines to the bellhousing are different sizes. Pretty cool of VW to do that. But you are mucho correct about the washers. It may well be possible to obstruct the flow of ATF by misplacing washers. Dunno for sure, but it would seem that placing the thick washer (or more) on the bolt end might obstruct the ATF passage. It's also possible that the insides of the bolt have filled with accumulated crud. I'm still thinking return hose.
Thanks Bookwus for clearing that up. My memory is so bad it is scary! Would it be possible to connect the other ends to the wrong place? Maybe with replacement hoses of the wrong length or are the fittings different there too? Just cant remember and it is really dark outside.
Hiya green,
Quote from: greenghia on 25 April 2009, 03:56 ......Would it be possible to connect the other ends to the wrong place?
Hmmm....maybe. Dunno for sure. But if that were possible I'd think you'd have one really tight hose and one really loose hose.
took both supply and return hoses off today. no blockage in either hose. not sure about the washers on the fittings, if i recall there was only one washer on each fitting when i took it all apart. i have tried different washers with no sucess so far. does anyone sell these washers or does someone in vw land have an extra set?
I noticed no return on my after i changed the fluid, while the engine was running i started undoing the nut on the left side of the pump, alot of air came out and then fluid started flowing freely after that.
also when my fluid is low, it doesn't flow
Hiya 74,
Those washers are very specific. The ones between the banjo fitting and the bellhousing are thick, The one between the banjo fitting and the bolt head are thinner. To go out and get replacement washers I'd imagine that you'd have to have a set of originals. Even then it wouldn't be a piece of cake. I was at my local hydraulics shop recently buying these washers. All they had was aluminum crush washers (the originals are copper). And they did not have anything to match the thick washers.
Wanna take a long shot? You might try contacting this guy.........
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=741354
I just bought a bolt from him. He may well have the washers you are looking for.