distributer thoughts

[kbug]

Hey all-I haven't posted in awhile because I've been waiting on my engine. It's only about a month and a half overdue. Andy called me today and said the longblock is finished and he just has to assemble the tin. etc.
and I should get it next week. He really wants to use a 009 dist.. I've read all your posts and opinions regarding the 009 and the flat spot. Andy's opinion is the electronic ignition will create a hotter spark to compensate for that. He also feels that 009"s are mechanically simpler and more trouble free. I hope I'm expressing his thoughts correctly, It's a little over my head.
      The guy has been building engines and working on bugs for 20 yrs, including autosticks. I know he builds drag engines and they use 009"s. Does he make some good points? I figure I should at least ask for my stock distributer back. That way I'm covered. Please share your thoughts.

Michael

[volkenstein]

Michael,
          What engine spec's? 009's have their place.

drag engines and they use 009"s

. That is an appropriate place.

34 Pict 3 and 009 combo is not. Too much evidence exists here and on other forums that this is just plain WRONG.

If the engine is close to stock (even with a W100 type cam) I would ask for my stock setup to be re-installed at the minimum.

IMHO
Volkenstein

[Bookwus]

Hiya Michael,

My thoughts on the usability of the 009............

If you are driving on the drag strip a 009 is great distributor.  Think about the typical scenario at a drag.  Driver revs the engine to a scream and lets go of the clutch.  Result?  Zoom!  The 009 is great for this because its curve is all out by 3000 RPMS.  The driver revs way past 3000 so everything is "go" when the green light pops.

On the other hand, that's not exactly how one drives on the street.  One usually takes off from a stoplight at something more than a fast idle.......say 1200 RPMs.  But that leaves a gap in the distributor curve for the 009.  The resulting gap manifests itself as a dead spot in the actual acceleration of the vehicle.  Not a good thing. 

A lot of folks will claim that they can greatly reduce or eliminate that dead spot by tinkering with the carb adjustments.  That's true to a certain extent.  But it should be obvious that these folks are not focusing on the component that is causing the dead in the first place.  As Sean points out, the 009 plays better with some carbs than others.  It is a big no-no with the 34PICT3.  And an electronic ignition system is not going to change that distributor curve.

And ask yourself this.............if the 009 were all that good, why would the engineering teams at Wolfsburg never use it on a production Bug?*  All of the Bugs have some sort of a vacuum advance (often in addition to a mechanical advance) to eliminate that dead spot.  The engineers at Wolfsburg specifically designed distributors to match the performance requirements of your engine/transmission package.

*Interestingly the 009 was originally designed to be used on an industrial version of the VW engine.

[kbug]

Carb is a 30/31 pict from jbugs. Engine is a 1776 set-up. Around 83 hp. Andy's a mobile mechanic. If he's so confident about the 009, then I bet I could get him to agree to come out to my house to switch it out if I'm unhappy.

[volkenstein]

Michael,
          Ahhh..muddied waters . Just assuming you've got the 90.5 P & C's, the 30/31 is a real determining factor. While these carbs work OK with only 1 known VW made vac advance distributor (excluding AC.Net) they aren't too bad with a 009. You'll have 1776 thundering CC's shoving you along to boot. Sounds like your main man would re-jet to suit so IMHO (2 cents, throwaway etc etc) you should be good to go.

The '68 distributor is NOT the compatible one anyway (113905205T - 1600 Sp manual)...but maybe chrome your stock one and keep it on the shelf?

You can always upgrade anyway at a later date if you so decide.


Regards
Volkenstein

[kbug]

Well that eases my mind. Thanks for your thoughts. I'm sure I'll be looking for some input on the installation. I'll post some pictures of the engine when I get it.

[Legacy]

I've been struggling with the same basic question so let me add another entry to this post. 

First off, I'm talking about a 69 Ghia Auto Stick.  As far as I know, it has a stock engine (1600cc, single 30 PICT-2 carb, and 009 distributor).  This is my wife's car so naturally she wants it to run "perfectly".  As an aside, my cars are a 32 Ford Hot Rod and a couple of MGBs - now don't hold that against me because I also have two water cooled VWs and I really think this Ghia is a cool car.

My question is, should I upgrade to an SVDA distributor to eliminate or reduce the flat spot, and if so, do I need to swap out the carb?  If the answer is yes, what combo is recommended (specific part numbers would be very helpful).

Thanks much for the advice.

Legacy

[68autobug]

it seems the SVDA distributor is the way to go...

We didn't have the flat spots etc that You have in the US..
and many vw owners have 009s over here...

I'm running a 009... but I hope to upgrade one day to the correct distributor..

the 009 can make an otherwise great vehicle nasty... lol

SVDA and electronic ignition...

cheers

LEE

PS: Sean & Mike are the experts...

[Bookwus]

Hiya Legacy,

.....First off, I'm talking about a 69 Ghia Auto Stick.  As far as I know, it has a stock engine (1600cc, single 30 PICT-2 carb, and 009 distributor).  This is my wife's car so naturally she wants it to run "perfectly".  As an aside, my cars are a 32 Ford Hot Rod and a couple of MGBs - now don't hold that against me because I also have two water cooled VWs and I really think this Ghia is a cool car.

Well, I'm holding it against you!  But not for the reason you might think.  I'm holding it against you because you have them and I don't!  Geez, if you also had a Sunbeam Tiger I might have to get up off my fat posterior and come after you.  32 Ford........neat!

......My question is, should I upgrade to an SVDA distributor to eliminate or reduce the flat spot, and if so, do I need to swap out the carb?  If the answer is yes, what combo is recommended (specific part numbers would be very helpful).

Your 69 Ghia, if original would be running a 1500 single port, a 30PICT2 carburetor, and a 205AA distributor.  Now if the engine has been rebuilt to a 1600 single port (as is the common practice these days) you could run a 205AA, a 205AD, or a 205AE distributor and call it original style equipment.  The 30PICT2 is a reliable carburetor (although it is probably better suited for a 1500 than a 1600 - the 1600 introduced in the 1970 model year used the 30PICT3 with an idle bypass circuit which helped with emissions).  The only knock on the 30PICT2 is that the air-bypass screw is very difficult (in some cases impossible) to adjust.

My preference happens to be just what I'm running right now in both my 1970 (almost OEM shape) vehicles...........30PICT3 Solex carb and an aircooled.net SVDA.  Although I would be hard pressed to argue against using a 205AD (or AE) in my AutoStick and a 205T in my Bus, I elected to go with the SVDA because of my subjective feelings about the situation.  I felt that I got more "pep" out of the SVDA than the stock units and John Connoly (the owner of aircooled.net) claims that an SVDA will actually help the engine run cooler and get better mileage.  Better mileage?  I really cannot say for sure.  I really did not keep track of my mileage before converting to the SVDA so I have no basis for comparison.  But these engines do run cool and that translates into a longer lifespan. 

[Legacy]

Mike

You're correct, it is a 1500cc engine, not 1600cc as I stated in my original post.  We just purchased this Ghia and I'm still learning exactly what is in it.  First time I've ever owned an air cooled VW and still doing research on it.

WRT adjusting the air bypass screw on the carb, I've already run into that.  Rebuilt the carb this past weekend and after installing it and setting the air bypass screw to 2 ½ turns open, I found there was no significant difference between that setting and 9 turns open, which was the setting of the screw when I took the carb off.

I'm interested in what exactly is the difference between the 009 and 205AA distributor that you indicate would have originally come on the car.  Is the 205AA a mechanical advance also or does it also have vacuum advance?  Wondering why a previous owner would have switched to the 009 given the knock against it regarding the flat spot.  The best I can tell, the car was never run as a drag racer so what other reason would there be for switching it?

If you are interested in seeing my 32 build process check out the following web site:  http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h106/mgzsak/32%20Ford%20Build%20up/

Thanks much for the info and your advice.  I'm quickly learning that this forum is a very valuable resource.

Legacy

[Bookwus]

Hiya Lee,

..... Sean & Mike are the experts...

Oh PUHLEEEZE!

Sean is the guy.  He takes the time to take things apart and reason them out.  Plus he also does his share of reading and research.  I would certainly take his advice.

Everything I put down in "digital ink" is only the result of tinkering around on my own car in hopes that it will keep running down the road each day (which it is currently not).  Expert (about most anything) I am certainly not.

[Bookwus]

Hiya Legacy,

....WRT adjusting the air bypass screw on the carb, I've already run into that.  Rebuilt the carb this past weekend and after installing it and setting the air bypass screw to 2 ½ turns open, I found there was no significant difference between that setting and 9 turns open, which was the setting of the screw when I took the carb off.

Apparently, this is all too common with the 30PICT2.  For more information about the peculiarities of the 30PICT2 you will want to contact Keith Doncaster (kiefernet over at the Samba).  Keith knows more about original equipment VW carburetors than anyone I've ever run into.  And he can turn that old, tired Solex into a marvel of fuel efficiency!

.....I'm interested in what exactly is the difference between the 009 and 205AA distributor that you indicate would have originally come on the car....

As opposed to the centrifical/mechanical only 009, the 205AA is an SVDA (single vacuum-dual advance).  It has a vacuum advance to allow it to overcome the dead spot in a mechanical only advance curve.  And it is curved to your specific application.

...Wondering why a previous owner would have switched to the 009 given the knock against it regarding the flat spot....

Ah yes, well, who really knows what might have been on the mind of a PO?  Bad advice from a mechanic?  Perhaps.  The following is just a personal observation.....take it for what it might be worth.  In the late sixties John Muir wrote what would turn out to be his enormously popular "Idiot's Guide" for maintaining your VW.  For simplicity's sake he advocated the changing of stock distributors to 009s.  And many took his advice to heart.  Of course, the "need for speed" crowd was thrilled with this change.  So, the 009 grew in popularity.  But daily drivers soon discovered that the 009 did have distinct disadvantages for their style of driving.  But the 009 is still a big seller at the parts houses - mostly on its reputation as a simple performance oriented component.

....If you are interested in seeing my 32 build process check out the following web site:  http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h106/mgzsak/32%20Ford%20Build%20up/

Beautiful!  Sigh.

[Legacy]

Mike

Again, thanks much for the info and the advice.

You have been extremely helpful and I certainly appreciate it.

Legacy

[kbug]

Mike

Again, thanks much for the info and the advice.

You have been extremely helpful and I certainly appreciate it.

Legacy

Suck up Just kidding. These guys know their stuff. So it sound like the 009 is a mechanically simpler dist.. It just doesn't marry well with stock applications. I'm just curious about the 009 because I'm going to be living with one. It'll be mated with elec. ignition. I believe that makes tune-ups simpler, anything else I should know about?

[Bookwus]

Hiya Kbug,

...... So it sound like the 009 is a mechanically simpler dist.. It just doesn't marry well with stock applications....

I spend a lot of time and words trying to say what you have stated in simple and easy-to-understand language.  Absolutely!

....It'll be mated with elec. ignition. I believe that makes tune-ups simpler, anything else I should know about?

Well, this really depends on just what you mean by electronic ignition.  For many this term refers to replacing the contact points with a Hall Effects sensor.  Think Pertronix or Compufire here.  Theoretically this is an excellent application.  There is no friction between the cam and the sensor to require adjustment as there are with points.  That translates into no points adjustments or replacements.  Great stuff.  However, there have been reports from some that they had trouble fitting the sensor or that it suddenly went south.  I know of a few folks with a sensor installed who carry a spare distributor with points along just in case.

Electronic ignition can also refer to a spark booster system.  Think MSD.  This set-up can use either points or the sensor but needs a special module and coil.  Usually a heavier duty set of spark plug wires are also needed.  This set-up dramatically increases the spark at the spark plug .  More fire means a more complete burn of the gas/air mixture in the combustion chamber.  Advocates say they get more "ooomph" and better gas mileage. Check in with Lee on his set-up!