ATF Leak

[sb001]

SB001:

Unfortunately all of my pics posted on this website are in Photobucket which is no longer functional. The seal in your pic is suspect to me and looks like a knock off. Both the black and orange OEM seals work fine in my experience even though they look different. The seal I had the issue with was a black knock off. The way to tell wheather a black or orange seal is OEM or correctly designed is the presence of oiling ridges along the sealing contact surface (TC hub in this case). The knock off seals are smooth around the contact surface and quickly become dry letting friction tear the seal in no time. I have seen the knock offs for sale in CIP1 and other sites. I informed them during that time and received no response. If ordering a new one I would do it over the phone and have them physically verify that the seal has oiling ridges. Hope this helps.

Tom

Thanks tmea-

So you are referring to this inner sealing edge?



Mine is beveled there as well, but I'm not sure about the ridges you are referring to, may not have those-- although zooming in on that photo it appears it might. 

[sb001]

Or wait--  do you mean THIS edge??



I can see the ridges there you are referring to, and that sealing edge appears a smaller width than the black one I have.

Just want to make sure this one I have won't work before I go replacing the seal...

[tmea]

SB001. Good pic of the orange seal. Those are the ridges I was referring to. The seal must have them to work. Those ridges literally pull oil into the mating surfaces so that they do not seize and tear. OEM earlier black seals also have these ridges. Unfortunately, many of the new manufacture black ones available now do not have these ridges and will fail quickly.

Use either black or orange seals but make sure it has the oil ribs.

Have you replaced a TC seal before? Let me know, I'll try to find a way to post (or send you) some pics of a simple hold down tool I made for the seal that keeps it flush and even so that you can peen the edge down to complete the installation (don't forget to do this).

Tom

[sb001]

Thanks Tom,
yes I have replaced my seal once before, a few years ago. I don't seem to be having any problems with it leaking despite having removed/ reinstalled the engine several times since. Makes me nervous about replacing it with another seal that may be suspect!

I took another (better) photo of my new seal:



As you can see it also has similar ridges around that part of the seal, but they are not exactly the same. If you look VERY closely at the orange seal posted above, those ridges actually seem to be small indented rectangles in that edge of the seal. Looking at my new one closely you can see that instead of rectangles it is simply angled grooves spaced equally apart. What effect this would have on the performance of the seal I have no idea. I will also say that that edge on mine is beveled, like the orange seal--but it may be wider. Thoughts?

[68autobug]

I just posted a rather long post about these seals I have used without any problems. but it was gone when I pressed post???
It happens now & then... usually with a long post...  testing

Lee

[68autobug]

Well, I have used many plain black seals -no small grooves... at all... and the later Red/orange ones with dual lipped and small grooves which i prefer.
I've always wondered why VW hasn't made the black seals [early] obsolete and just sell the RED ones with the dual lips and small grooves.  I like to lubricate all seals I use, and with the dual lips I can wipe some ATF onto it all around so it is lubricated from the first turn...  The replacement black seals from the USA I bought are just plain with no dual lips or grooves...  I have used both with out any problems at all...

The seals seem to last a long time, and usually only need to be replaced when the engine is removed or the torque converter is moved, as the seals do go hard with the heat over the years and are not flexible once they are disturbed years later. So cannot be used again... I have a 1968 beetle and I have used both the early black seal and the later red seals with out any leaks.  I also found a new red seal but with the inside spring as on the black seals. This red seal had the dual lips & grooves too.... No Idea where it came from... Would be great to find another source...

I would check all hose fittings for a small tear or rip in a hose or a loose fitting [unlikely].....

Lee in Australia

[tmea]

That is a good seal.

[68autobug]

That seal also looks OK to Me.... just remember to pein the seal in 3 or 4 spots... I use a screwdriver with the metal right thru the handle...... lol 

[tmea]

SB001:

Here is a pic of the hold down installation tool I made from a PVC pipe fitting, angle iron and a shim. Took me just a few minutes to make. A must have IMO. It holds the seal down square and flush on the boss and allows you to peen the edges without disturbing the flush mounting. VW had a similar SST for this back in the day. If you do not use it it is very possible (after peening the edges) to mount the seal slightly off center and cause quick and uneven wear on the sealing surface with the TC.

Hope this helps.

Tom

[sb001]

Thanks Tom! I will look into making something like that!
When I installed my current seal I did something a bit similar, I used a 36mm (I think) socket that fit over the TC shaft, with a block of wood to tap it into place. Definitely not as foolproof as your tool but I must have gotten it correct cause it has not leaked since it went on!
My bigger problem seems to be the crap drain plate gasket I used on the bottom of the case when I changed the transmission oil out a couple years ago...   

[68autobug]

Yes, I used a PVC pipe fitting with a piece of wood and a hammer... and knocked the seal down so it seats correctly... and I used a flat screwdriver where the steel shaft goes thru the handle...  never had any problems....


Lee