VW Automatic Register

Thought I'd better post this up as a general guide. I wrote this on TheSamba in response to a question.


ATF. Better with two people. 2 gallons of DEXRON 111 ATF + 1 bottle (or 10 litres, take your pick).

If it is the ATF that is discoloured, best thing to do is get the tank drained first and then flush the system. First things first. Clean the bottom banjo bolt and surrounding area. Then do the same at the hose connection on the filler neck.
So, place a large container under the tank bottom then undo the banjo bolt. It's advisable to give the spanner some sharp blows to "crack" it loose. Watch for the copper washers! Undo all the way and let all the ATF drain out. Refit the banjo bolt and washers (in sequence!) and give it 25ft/lb torque.
Next, undo the return line from the filler tank neck. Place a length of spare garden hose over it and run it into a bucket. Fill the ATF tank with fresh oil. Have a friend start the car and let it idle. Keep adding ATF to the tank as the old rubbish pumps out. Check the colour of oil coming out of the hose. Keep cycling new oil into the tank until the oil coming out of the hose is a beautiful light cherry red. Stop the engine. Check the ATF oil level with the dipstick. Say...1/2" below the top mark is good. Add or drain as necessary. Take the garden hose off and refit the hose to the filler neck. A firm wrist twist to tighten it.

Trans. Oil - 6.3 US pints or 3.5 litres, trans pan gasket, 17mm hex key tool (or a bootyfab effort) & patience. A big jack and stands too. Better done when the trans is warm.

Raise the rear up and put on stands. Grovel around underneath and find the 17mm inside hex fill plug. It's above the Drivers (LHD!) frame horn towards the front of the car, but before the nosecone piece. Again, clean the area until you can see your face in it as my old boss used to say. Grab the 17mm hex key tool (or whatever) and with a steady amount of force try to undo the fill plug. Do this first or you'll never be able to get oil in there. Undo it and set aside. Now slide a container under the trans pan and undo the pan bolts (you may still have the bolt straps, keep them aside too) a little. Then remove the front (front of car) pan bolts and loosen the rest then pry the pan down until oil spews out. Let it drain for a while. Remove the pan bolts and straps and pull off the pan. While you are cleaning the pan, raise the front of the car so it's level and get's the rest of the oil out. Get that container out of the way. Clean off the trans pan mounting surface. Gasket on the pan, chuck a few pan bolts on and tighten until you feel a little resistance. Put the rest of the pan bolts on (and straps etc) and just finger tight.

**NB** You may have a very long bolt. This goes in the centre front (front of car) hole.
Now do those up, criss-cross to 7 ft/lb. I say bolts but they can also be screws.

I'll leave it to you whether to get extra stands to hold the car level or work having the jack up front.

Now the horror. If your oil bottles have an extended neck or whatever, you have to get that in the trans fill hole and pump oil in there. By hook or by crook, get oil in there, but take a break between bottles. It has to run down to the R&P. Eventually nearing the 5.5 to 6 pint mark-ish you should be able to feel the oil with your pinky in the fill hole. Pump in more, slowly, until a driblet comes out of the thread. Fill plug back in. Don't go nuts tightening it!! A firm wrist twist is all that's required. Sorry, I don't have a torque spec.

As for the trans oil...I don't live in the USA, so I stick by what's available here. Castrol LSX90 or VMX80. Mike and other A-S owners who are US based can offer more choices.

Here's where the fill plug is :

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/ctefeh/MISC/Transplug.jpg)

This is an early trans and you can see the second drain plug to the left. Later models don't have this.

Feel free anyone with comments, additions, deletions etc.

HTH
Volkenstein

Quote from: volkenstein on 17 August 2007, 04:07
Grab the 17mm key tool (or whatever)

my whatever was a 17mm nut welded onto another nut lol

Hiya Sean,

Excellent piece.  Bjorn should start a supplemental tech archive section for articles like yours.  To tell the truth, they are a LOT better than the directions in a Bentley.

Oh and FWIW.............I use a 17mm Allen socket with a 1/2 inch drive.  I can apply some pretty good torque on that (using a breaker bar) to loosen up the filler plug.  Lucky me..........I also have the drain plug.

Good article Sean,
I also had two nuts welded to gether but they came apart trying to undo the two plugs on My spare gearbox...
My Son happened to have the correct tool [1/2 inch drive] to undo them
I have used teflon tape on the drain plug and done it up finger tight..
I have replaced the axle flange seals, and replaced the flanges etc..

Did you use the 80 or 90 grade oil??

The ATF system only uses 3.6 liters or 7.6 US pints...
but I'm assuming that You are cleaning out the system...

The torque converter in My car at present had been left in the rain...
and it took Me a lot of bottles of ATF to get it a nice red color..

I always drain the ATF from the bottom of the tank as you suggested but I've never emptied the system like that [engine going]..
so I've learnt something today...
I always save the ATF fluid as the car had not been on the road when I was pulling the engine out... always with new clean containers etc...
but I've never reused the ATF...
I've never been able to reuse oil etc, even if the engine hasn't turned over..
its a clean thing .... lol ;D ;D ;D :D

cheers

Lee - 68Autobug - Australia -

http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug

All,
     Lee, crank the amps up on your welder and really burn that weld in  ;D
I've topped my trans oil up with VMX80, but I've got 4 litres of LSX90 on hand for a proper change.

I'd go easy (which you have anyway) on tightening with Teflon tape on there. The plugs are tapered. A small smear of Loctite Master Pipe sealant is what I've been using.

Flange seals? The ones that seal around the outside of the stub axles inside the adjusters? Post up what numbers they are!!

dfrommi,
           The 17mm nuts are great, use them myself though I'd rather have Mike's setup!.

Mike, that's a trippy avatar you found yourself! 


Regards
Sean

Thanks volkenstein for posting this, it will be a great help to me when I go to do some work on my VW.   :)

Hi,
I'm having to write My posts on here twice...
it tells Me that the server is overloaded...
and when I delete some of the text or pics
and try to post it again,,
it says I have already posted this - ERROR -
and when i have a look, its never there....??

anyway the part number for the seals is 113 301 189F
and they are dual lipped black seals
36mm x 60mm x 9.6mm
although 8 or 10mm would do...
I used a PVC pipe joiner to knock the seals in...
a slight smear of Permatex No 3 on the OD
and a few drops of oil on the ID... between the two lips...

cheers

Lee - 68Autobug - Australia -

http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug

The screws that hold the bottom pan on are 7mm...
I have lost one and I was going to replace them with stainless steel bolts or allen headed bolts..
but they aren't available....
I'll have to get a bolt from another transmission I have...

Does anyone have Hexagon headed bolts in their Pan??
or do We all have allen headed screws....??

cheers

Lee -

http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug

Has anyone used CASTROL Multitrac gear/diff transaxle oil  ???

Thats what I bought last time.. still have a few liters of it left...

Lee

http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug
old Radio add in Australia - it was pronounced VolksVagen... true..

FWIW...Gearbox plugs... I would be very careful about tightening those drain and fill plugs tightly. From personal experience and observations, they are tapered and if tightened too tight will absolutely crack your transmission case. I have also seem them put spider cracks all around the hole too. I use a 17mm allen wrench and put them in hand tight with no sealer of any kind. They don't leak.

The drain plug in the gearbox in My beetle at the moment does weep slightly..
but I won't tighten it up, although all the plugs, side and bottom have been up very tight on all the gearboxes I own...
I don't know why the top up plug would be done up extra tight...

I use teflon tape on all tapered fittings...
even the oil pressure sender...
I don't really like tapered fittings of any kind...
as you said, many people have cracked gearboxes engines etc..
by over tightening....
but teflon tape is used widely in hydraulic couplings and hose fittings
so it does work great...

I do have a new tube of Loctite pipe sealant, but so far have never used it on anything...

Lee

http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug

Lee,
     

QuoteThe screws that hold the bottom pan on are 7mm...
I have lost one and I was going to replace them with stainless steel bolts or allen headed bolts..
but they aren't available....
I'll have to get a bolt from another transmission I have...

Does anyone have Hexagon headed bolts in their Pan??
or do We all have allen headed screws....??

We've had this out before :).
My spare and the one in my car use M6 x 1mm x 20mm bolts (apart from 1 which has a 20mm blank extension, centre front on trans). 
I would seriously measure yours (use a 10mm nut) and verify that someone hasn't whacked in 1/4" by mistake or otherwise!

Wouldn't want to helicoil all of them back to M6 x 1 !!

PS, mine are all bolts.

Regards
Sean

Hi Sean,
all the screws on My original gearbox and spare gearbox have the 7mm phillips headed screws....
which seems strange to Me...
its definately 7mm
I just looked up My blue [1968] Bentley manual and it says
M7 x 14 bolts...

it seems very strange to use 7mm to start with and then phillips head too...??

I suppose they didn't want them to be stripped...
they were done up very tight..
I used vice grips to undo them...

I haven't checked the other spare gearbox I have... [1968 also]

I didn't know they were 7mm until I took one to the Bolt shop and ordered 14 allen headed stainless ones...

cheers

Lee -- 68Autobug -

http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug

Lee,
     Colour me stupid and knock me down with a feather.. They are M7 thread...

Who knows what bolt *I* was measuring ???!!

I went out and checked (I have all the trans bolts in a marked container) and sure as eggs, they measured 6.8 mm in diameter!!

I can see myself licking oil stains off concrete driveways for all eternity......maybe I should start practicing now?

I guess that brings about a question I have now, which is :

Are my bolts VW or aftermarket??


Regards
Sean

Hi Sean,
I believe if Your long bolt with no thread on the end...
is a bolt , then its probably factory....

unless someone has machined the end of a long 7mm bolt...
if You could find one... lol   :D ;D

Mike,
Do You have bolts on the gearbox pan...??

Lee


http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug

Hiya Lee,

Mine are bolts.  Take a fuzzy look at a sample...................

(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/Bug/IMG_0662.jpg)

And Sean............all my bolts are exactly the same which leads me to believe that these are OEM (at least for 1970)

Hi Mike,

thats too fuzzy for Me, could You send the full set over to Me for inspection?
;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

You should have one special bolt...
same thread length but about double the length.. 50mm
it goes in the middle of the pan on the front side...
I believe it holds something in place...
I 'm only guessing...

Lee

http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug

Mike,
      Mine all look like that and my spare trans is from a '70 model. Except for this one long one.

Lee,
     You have that long screw/bolt as well? I was suspicious of mine because it just seemed out of place. I can't work out whether it butts up against the pinion bearing or is a second fixing method for the little spring clip that slips in under the pinion bearing retaining nut.

I'll try (camera is having a hernia at the mo) and post up my bolts.


Ta
SEan

Well Guys,
I went up behind the shed to look at another old spare transmission I have, o get one screw out of the bottom plate...
and low and behold.... it has bolts....
including two 1/4 inch [guess] imperial bolts... maybe 5/16" ??

The number of the tranny is BA 021  6090
I've never pulled it apart, so maybe now is the time...

Lee

http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug

Guys,
       Here's mine from the spare. The box was made in '69. Also, check that long bolt!

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/ctefeh/VWsemiautobox/PanBolts.jpg)


Regards
Sean

I have a quick question, I have found a high mileage ATF that is to replace Dexron 1,2, and 3.  Is this safe to use?  The label says nothing about VW however there are many other brands on the label.  Also, is 90W gear oil suitable for the needs of the trans oil?  Thanks

Chris,
       ATF type "A" has long been superseded by Dexron 11. If your ATF oil supersedes DX11 and says so then use it. 90W? Depends. Is it suitable for
a transaxle type transmission? Synthetic or Mineral? EP rating? Lot's of factors.  In my original comments I mention Castrol products since they are readily available world wide and one (VMX 80) is specifically for transaxles including VW's. LSX90 was recommended to me as a more than acceptable substitute.
I know Mike has his fave product that he can get in the US and if he's happy with it then you should be happy using it!


Wasn't that a "no real answer" ;D....

HTH
Volkenstein

Hiya Chris,

As long as Sean got me into this............................

I use Sta-Lube Hypoid Gear Oil SAE 85W90.  It's available by the quart at your local NAPA parts dealer.  This is also a GL-4 rated hypoid oil.  There has been much (vehement) discussion as to whether one can run the more modern GL-5 rated hypoid oils in the VW gearbox (both manual and autostick).  It was thought that the GL-5 rated oils would deteriorate the yellow metal washers used in these transmissions,  And apparently that was the case with early formulations of GL-5.  As I understand the situation now, GL-5 should be compatible with VW innards.  Me?  I'll stick with GL-4

Well, I made the big {read expensive] decision to run synthetic Castrol Syntax 75/90  oil... in My replacement gearbox...
I'm believing that if the gearbox is OK when i install it, then it will stay that way.

otherwise, the Molydebenium Disulfide additive will be used...
as thats what has kept My gearbox going for 3 years...
and it was so noisy at the start , You couldn't hear the radio at all...
and the noise has slowly lowered, to an acceptable whine when accelerating..
and I do use the radio/cd player.....

cheers

Lee -




http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug

Quote from: volkenstein on 17 August 2007, 15:33
 Lee,
I'd go easy (which you have anyway) on tightening with Teflon tape on there. The plugs are tapered. A small smear of Loctite Master Pipe sealant is what I've been using.
Regards
Sean

well, I had already put some gear oil and Moly additive into My replacement gearbox,
so I drained it and filled it with Castrol syntax sythetic oil..
I didn't like the way the teflon tape had sealed the drain plug..
the teflon naturally is cut into thin pieces by the threads..
so, I've used Loctite pipe sealant this time...

I'll keep the teflon tape for the taps.... ;D ;D :D :D

cheers

Lee -   

Thanks guys,

I have had a hard time finding the correct ATF to put in my VW because of my location.  I live in central Mississippi and here no one has ever heard of an A/S.  I will try to see if my local parts store can order the oil or they may have it in stock.

Hiya Chris,

Remember that the AutoStick will require two types of lubrication.

The ATF is for the torque converter only.  It needs to have Dexron (I, II, or III) and that is easily found at any parts store.  It goes into the ATF reservoir on the right side of the engine compartment.

The hypoid oil SAE 85W90 is for the gearbox.  It's what most folks would think of as gear oil.  It goes in the side of the transaxle through a 17 mm hole plugged by a 17mm allen plug.

Yes, many people get confused when you say gearbox oil for an auto...

they switch from 90 hypoid oil to Dexron ATF.... ;D ;D ;D

I've given up mentioning that My auto gearbox has hypoid oil in it...
it just too confusing...
and having to explain how the semi auto works is just too confusing for many people..
especially if they are behind a counter trying to sell You oil...  errr  ATF.. ;D ;D :D

Lee

Quote from: 68autobug on 24 August 2007, 17:49
Hi Sean,
I believe if Your long bolt with no thread on the end...
is a bolt , then its probably factory....

unless someone has machined the end of a long 7mm bolt...
if You could find one... lol   :D ;D

Mike,
Do You have bolts on the gearbox pan...??

Lee

Lee - new member here... Regarding the one long bolt in the pan; I just removed the hex head bolts on my AS trans pan & all bolts were the same length...

Bryan in NC


http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug

Hiya Bryan,

Welcome to the forum!  Always good to have one more AutoSticker online.

Your pan bolts were all the same length?  Interesting.  How about a little more information...........................

Are all of the bolts you removed the same?  I'm thinking that one (or some) may have been replaced.  Is that a possibility?  And, what year car are you driving?

Yes, One bolt/screw is more than double the length of all the other screws...
it has the same length thread then its smooth/no thread all the way to the end..
We believe it holds something in the gearbox in place...
so it could be important...

You can buy new gaskets for the bottom of the gearbox/transaxle

Lee in Australia




http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug


[/b]

Quote from: Bookwus on 23 March 2008, 04:24
Hiya Bryan,

Welcome to the forum!  Always good to have one more AutoSticker online.

Your pan bolts were all the same length?  Interesting.  How about a little more information...........................

Are all of the bolts you removed the same?  I'm thinking that one (or some) may have been replaced.  Is that a possibility?  And, what year car are you driving?

Car was a '72 Beetle - all the pan bolts were the same...

This is probably a no brainer for most, but since I'm new to the world of AS, I have to ask.

Does the climate you live in affect the type of ATF you use?

Texas is mostly HOT and sometimes we have short cold spells, so I want to make sure I use the right ATF if there is a difference.

Hiya Stephanie,

There is, I suppose, a possibility that under EXTREME (like way below zero) conditions the specs for ATF might indicate a change to another range of fluid.

However, in actuality Dexron (or any of its succesive variants) will handle most any weather Texas can throw at it.  Remember that ATF is not (at least primarily) a lubricant but a medium which allows a transfer of power.  It can handle heat and still remain "coherent".  Pretty tough stuff actually.

Why does it have to smell like it does??

although that IS a better smell than Hypoid Diff & gearbox oil....  YUK..

I used an oil pump??
not sure what its called...
just like a large needle only with a rubber hose on the end...

it only holds about 1/2 a pint [guessing]
but the synthetic oil I bought did come in the 1 liter bottles with the long neck.
I put My finger over the end until I got close to the gearbox filler hole..
then once in , I squirted it all in...
luckily I didn't spill any [at $26 a liter]

I always go back and check the level a few days later
to make sure its full....
I like to have it dribbling out the hole....

Lee

Hiya Stephanie,

Lee, next time you change out your ATF or your Hypoid be sure to buy a clothespin!

Actually Stephanie, Lee's comment reminded me of something you might want to check on concerning your ATF.  Even though ATF is pretty tough stuff it will wear out eventually.  It can collect dirt and moisture and it can be burnt or simply wear out.  When one considers that it's quite likely your ATF has not been changed in 30 years, it's probably a good idea to take a close look at it now.

Good ATF will be a bright translucent red in color.  When ATF ages it starts turning brownish.  If it appears to be "cloudy" (not translucent) it has started picking up water.  Burned ATF will also turn a bit brownish but will also smell burned.  To know what "burn" smells like you'll probably need to take a whiff of fresh ATF for the sake of comparison.  And as Lee will attest, none of it (burned or fresh) smells all that good.

If you find that your ATF is questionable, your best bet would be to change it out.  The procedure for doing this appears below.  This is Sean's (Volkenstein) procedure and it is (by far and away) the best way to go about it.

"ATF. Better with two people. 2 gallons of DEXRON 111 ATF + 1 bottle (or 10 litres, take your pick).

If it is the ATF that is discoloured, best thing to do is get the tank drained first and then flush the system. First things first. Clean the bottom banjo bolt and surrounding area. Then do the same at the hose connection on the filler neck.
So, place a large container under the tank bottom then undo the banjo bolt. It's advisable to give the spanner some sharp blows to "crack" it loose. Watch for the copper washers! Undo all the way and let all the ATF drain out. Refit the banjo bolt and washers (in sequence!) and give it 25ft/lb torque.
Next, undo the return line from the filler tank neck. Place a length of spare garden hose over it and run it into a bucket. Fill the ATF tank with fresh oil. Have a friend start the car and let it idle. Keep adding ATF to the tank as the old rubbish pumps out. Check the colour of oil coming out of the hose. Keep cycling new oil into the tank until the oil coming out of the hose is a beautiful light cherry red. Stop the engine. Check the ATF oil level with the dipstick. Say...1/2" below the top mark is good. Add or drain as necessary. Take the garden hose off and refit the hose to the filler neck. A firm wrist twist to tighten it. " 

Thanks for the info, I'll have to check  the ATF when I get it back from the shop, not sure if they would have changed it or not. The car is shifting and from what I heard from a friend in the neighborhood of the shop it was going for a test drive this evening, so hopefully all goes well and I will have it back tomorrow so I can start the cleaning for the show saturday in Nacogdoches, Texas.

Where do you get the transmission plate gasket from?

Airhead

Airhead,
          The usual suspects. CIP1 or EVW or other large parts houses. RING cip1 if they list it as sometimes they don't have it. Or...you can buy a 1 ft square of 3/32 nitrile rubber sheet and cut 'n' wad punch your own then use a non hardening sealer with it like Permatex 3 or Gasgacinch.

HTH
Volkenstein

I bought a gasket off CIP1 or BFY ??

but I didn't use it, the old gasket was OK
so I used Permatex no3 non hardening sealant..

I'll have to check My transaxle oil one day...
as it didn't use the full 3 liters...

and it was empty of oil..

Lee

Hi, A quick thing on teflon, it is not a sealant. It is a lubricant that allows a tapered thread tighten more and on pipes not leak so be careful on the tranny as it will let you over tighten the plugs with ease. Rob

I found the tapered plugs didn't need too much tightening...

although i used a pipe sealant this time... on the bottom plug..

the top filler plug doesn't really need anything
and doesn't need to be tightened too tight...

whoever had done up all the plugs on My 3 gearboxes must have used a breaker bar with 3ft of pipe on it..??

they must have thought they were tightening 4 inch water pipe...   lol

Lee
 

[/color]

Checked my transmission sump today with the intention of replacing the oil, mine is held on with screw headed bolts, how do you torque these up is it necessary or would you tighten them firmly by hand, also I noticed my transmission has a drain plug at the bottom which looks all corroded (looks like a real pig to get out) if you remove the sump plate I assume its not necessary to remove the drain plug though I expect removing the drain plug would be less messy :-\

Airhead

its unlikely the drain plug would be rusted
unless it was super clean and salt attacked it>>

The plug still should undo..
its a tapered plug..

I took the plate off the bottom after first removing the plug..
but its still messy...

I had to take the phillips head screws off with Vice grips
as they were done up very tight..

I did them up with a large screwdriver that had a square stem
and i placed a crescent [shifting] spanner on them...

They must have been done up with an air rattle gun..

another gearbox i have has bolt heads in it...

the bolts/screws are 7mm metric
and one is a special long screw - the end doesn't have any thread..
its in the middle of the front..

LEE

PS: We have temperatures over 100F in the summer and below 30F in the winter mornings..

Hello,  Unless you just want to see what's in there there is no reason to remove the plate. Just unscrew the plug and let the oil out.  You aren't going to find the gasket at your FLAPS.  I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before but remove the fill plug first. You would not want to get all the oil out and then have to spend days removing the fill plug before you could drive again.  Many folks have done just that. Those plugs can be expensive to remove(skin from knuckles, bad looks from neighbors after poorly thought out verbal expressions, trips to store to buy tools, etc etc)  Good luck and let us know how it works out!

Quote from: greenghia on 19 May 2008, 20:10
Hello,  Unless you just want to see what's in there there is no reason to remove the plate. Just unscrew the plug and let the oil out.  You aren't going to find the gasket at your FLAPS.  I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before but remove the fill plug first. You would not want to get all the oil out and then have to spend days removing the fill plug before you could drive again.  Many folks have done just that. Those plugs can be expensive to remove(skin from knuckles, bad looks from neighbors after poorly thought out verbal expressions, trips to store to buy tools, etc etc)  Good luck and let us know how it works out!

That was Great info....
and very important...
As You said, those plugs can be VERY tight...

so You need some leverage to undo them...
when tightening, only tighten until they stop leaking...
the plugs are tapered...
If You had a lot of leverage on the tool, You can crack the gearbox case...

cheers

LEE

http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug