We were taking our 69 AS for a ride yesterday and we noticed a smell after a few miles. It was a petroleum burning smell but not too strong. We pulled over and looked around but found no leaks, so we continued on. A few more miles up the road, white smoke started rolling out from under. We pulled over and it looked like there was a leak near the torque converter. There was also fluid on the shelf under the ATF fill. The oil and atf levels were good. We shut her off, called AAA and towed her home. She has sat there since last night.
Some things to note: We took her out Sunday and she ran great. Shifted well, decent acceleration, and was a great ride. Monday evening, we took her out "Pokemon hunting" and I noticed that she was a little sluggish. I would accelerate, the engine revs would go up, and then if I lifted a bit to cruise, the rpms would go down, as if something was slipping. It tested this a few times in all gears. Same result was noted, so a quick check of the ATF and it was good. I also noted the same "slipping" before we sent our smoke signals. When I went to move her to a safer place, she didnt want to move much, even in low.
Could something have caused a pluggage in the ATF system making the ATF spew out of the cap and starving the TC? Is there a good fluid to flush the atf system with to remove deposits other than more ATF and would be safe for the pump and seals?
She starts and runs, but I havent tried to move her since we got her home last night. Any suggestions or comments are appreciated.
Thank you!
Tim
This one is tough to diagnose.
Skimming through the Bentley autostick troubleshooting chart, one thing that caught my eye was the "clutch slips at full throttle, not just after shifting" symptom. if this sounds like what is going on with your car, a possible cause is oil or ATF on the flex plate due to leak or leaks. So I am wondering, with the sluggish response, and now the smoke coming out, if either:
a) your main seal has blown a leak and has gotten on the clutch facings of the drive plate, causing it to slip, or
b) one of your ATF lines has developed a crack causing it to leak, or oyur torque converter somehow developed a crack or leak.
One or both of these fluids being on the clutch facings on the drive plate may explain the slippage and sluggish response. There is another item in the troubleshooting chart (#11) that describes the symptom of "poor acceleration despite good engine output." In this case it says the torque converter is faulty and should be replaced.
In either case I'm afraid you may be due for an engine pull to fully check everything.
P.S. I have the Bentley autostick section (with the troubleshooting chart) in PDF format on my computer, if you would like me to send it to you just message me your email address- it may help for you to read it to help solve the issue.
We pulled the engine (again) and the torque converter/flexplate bolts gave me a fit. Three of the flexplate nuts decided to free themselves, so the bolt would just spin. After some cutting and grinding, the bolts let go and we could see what was going on with the trans.
I pulled the tc and noticed immediately that there was no gush of fluid. Then, when I satin on the bench, I noticed no fluid in the impeller intake. Bad scene for sure. Inspection of the tc seal showed it was toast...crunchy and not flexible. That was a new seal!
Inspection of the hoses revealed deterioration of the soft hoses. I blew out all the lines with air and blew the passages going to the tc on the trans. The lower passage blew through to the tc but the upper one did nothing. Is there a check valve in the top orafice? Meanwhile, the lines felt spongy, so I gave them a little flex test and snap. Now I need new hoses. Yea! The fittings are different, so is there a place to get new or should a place that makes hoses be able to reuse the ends?
So, looks like another flexplate, tc seal, tc bolts and and soft hoses are needed to get the beast rolling again. I have an extra flex plate, so I tack welded the nuts so they won't spin.
I did find another handful of black pellets. I hope that it's cleared out now.
The last time I replaced the seal, the ran was out and apart. Should I use a gear puller with it in the car?
There is no check valve I am aware of in that top hose fitting, just a banjo style fitting connecting it to the bell housing "tunnel" where the ATF goes through. But I could be wrong.
I pulled my old torque converter seal awhile back without any special tools, I believe I just used a small flathead screwdriver tapping very lightly around the edge of the seal to start it loose. If yours is peened around the edge though you would probably have to flatten those peen marks back out.
I am sure there are places around that can supply a good quality replacement hose but I am unsure of the size, actual material etc. If you want actual original vw ATF hose you can find good used here ( a little pricey though):
https://www.bugcity.com/shop/shop.htm?pquery=autostick+fluid+hose
Good luck let us know how it goes.
Holy dollar signs, Batman! Those aren't cheap!. I was able to get all of the passages cleared, repaired the return atf hose, and installed a new transfer seal from evwparts. I also put a freshly welded flex plate on as well. Put it all together, drove around a bit and it was good. No leaks and shifted like it should.
So, we decided to take it to a friend's wedding that evening. Did OK but I noticed an atf trail when we went slowly. Not cool. Later, on the way home, I checked the atf fluid and it was low. Filled, drove a ways and it started sending smoke signals. Pulled into a wally, bought a 5qt jug of atf, filled it again, and be rely made the 11 miles home. (Smoking on and off all the way). Parked it an this am it looked like murder had taken place. Most, if not all the atf was on the ground and in the gutter.
So, it's been in and out at least 5 times in the last year. The seal was new a year ago and didn't last. Now this "new" seal has failed also. This is the gold and black one from evwparts.com. I'm so mad at this thing, I'm ready to sell it or change it to a manual. Any suggestions, comments or insights are welcome.
Tim
Wow! Sorry to hear.
Are you absolutely sure the ATF is coming from the torque converter/ bell housing area? Was the puddle on the ground under there? Could it be that you have a leak in your ATF tank under the right rear fender? Is the tank dry? The torque converter as long as it's not damaged will hold fluid no matter what, so we obviously have a pretty sizable leak, and for that much to drip out even with the car off, my first suspect would be the tank itself. But if the puddle is not under that area of the car, yeah something else is going on. Is it possible your hose repair did not hold?
Sorry very tough to diagnose an issue like this without being at the car itself. If it does turn out to be the torque converter seal again, I have read other stories on here of folks having trouble keeping theirs in place if it was the earlier type seal with the spring on the outside lip, like this:
(https://vwparts.aircooled.net/v/vspfiles/photos/001-301-083-2.jpg)
The later types with the seal on the inside lip apparently hold better, but you should still "peen" them into place to make sure:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_leVniXqObMk/TUYO856RKaI/AAAAAAAAA4g/qzKDFukrgKU/s800/torque-converter-seal-1.jpg)
The torque converter seal for the 1969 Model was the black one with the spring on the outside. I have used both seals and have also found a quite different [orange] seal in a complete autostick assembly I bought from a burnt out Beetle. All these seals worked OK, and I believe all are interchangeable BUT it is strange VW didn't stop making the early black seal and Use the orange late seal ONLY??? I don't like where the ATF inlet is situated near the ATF Tank Cap. If the tank Cap seal leaks at all, You will get ATF misting out from the leaking cap. What happens to the torque converter seal, is that because the ATF gets so hot under normal circumstances, after some time, it goes hard, so, when the torque converter is moved, like when the engine is taken out, the hard sealing lip of the ATF torque converter seal moves slightly [thousands of an inch] so, when it is assembled again, the torque converter seal leaks ATF... this is very common... I would suggest replacing the T/C seal every time You move the torque converter if the seal has been in place for 12 months or more, or if the Automatic transmission fluid has been Very Hot.
You have to use Special Automatic Transmission Fluid labelled "DEXRON" which I have found easy to obtain. Using any other kind of ATF can cause major problems in the system. This ATF System was designed for DEXRON ATF....
You call the ATF hoses "soft hoses"?? I made My replacement hoses from Hydraulic hose which isn't soft, and the original hoses were also hard high pressure hose. I recommend You re-use ALL the original hose fittings [very important to label where the washers go on the banjo bolts as they are not identical.]
I reused the original hose fittings mated with ferrules to suit the new hydraulic hose. Using the original hose fittings means they have the correct internal measurements for correct flow of the ATF. You need to inspect the engine oil to make sure there isn't any ATF in the engine oil. If there is any ATF in the engine oil You can smell the ATF....
because there are two small seals in the engine oil/atf dual pump that seperate the two fluids. Engine oil and ATF "DEXRON"If there is any leakage usually the ATF goes into the engine oil because of the higher pressure of the ATF.. Now I would replace those two small seals because the Your ATF had been very hot..... and if the engine had been running with no ATF, then the seals would have be dry and NOT Lubricated.. You really had some BAD luck with the flex plate bolts. I have only had one come loose on Me and I had used loctite on it... It needs to be braized back on... and it should be balanced!!! or weld all 4 nuts the same amount of weld...!! I have used allen key headed bolts, plus normal HT hex headed bolts and now I am using the original special bolts.
Very Important - All seals must be lubricated before use otherwise the dry lips will just wear down very fast. I always place a few drops of ATF on the lips of the Torque Converter seal with My finger. All Seals need to be lubricated - with OIL - GREASE - ATF...
Once all the hydraulic and vacuum hoses have been replaced along with the seals. there shouldn't be any major problems...
Lee in Australia
So, the saga continues...
If you remember from last time, our darling little autostick puked tons of ATF on the way home from a wedding. I didnt have time to mess with it before we went on vacation, so it has sat until recently.
Today, we removed the engine and the seal was toast. Brand new seal with less than 100 miles on it and it was crunchy. So, pulled that off and put a new one in its place. I was about to reinstall the torque converter and noticed that something didnt look right. I looked on the internal wall near the splines and noticed that there was some jagged metal that was razor thin. I took some needle nose pliers and removed it and realized that the tc mechanical seal was toasted. From this I can surmise that the tc was wobbling, thus creating the problem with the tc seal and the breaking of the flexplate. I had read on another thread that this had occurred to another member years ago. The solution? Get a reman tc.
So, now comes the 64 thousand dollar question...who remans vw autostick torque converters? No, I dont want the "just call any transmission shop" jive, because Ive done that. Noone in the St Louis area (that I know of) rebuilds VW autostick torque converters. If you know of one in the STL area, please let me know! Otherwise, anyone know of a specific re manufacturer of this critical part to our beloved Autosticks?
Thanks
Tim
I haven't heard of anyone remanufacturing autostick torque converters. Just purchase a used torque converter that has come from a functioning car, if possible. They shouldn't be worth a lot of money. I bought a complete autostick assembly from a burnt out beetle a few years ago for $100. I told the seller that is all I could afford..It looks like Your ATF over heated for some reason!! I damaged a torque converter many years ago, after I had it in and out a few times with no problems, but one time I must have moved something??? maybe turned a rear wheel/axle a bit as the torque converter splines did not align this time and I noticed the screws in the flexplate were much more difficult to tighten up... Then once all was together and I started the engine there was a thumping sound as the TC was out of balance.... Now I always make sure the splines all line up correctly....
Best of Luck...
Lee 68autobug in Australia
Hello LaLa69,
So are you saying that the input shaft hole on the torque converter had metal jagged edges sticking out that were ripping into the torque converter seal?? Wow! Is there any way you can show a picture of that? I am wondering if that is the same issue another poster over on the samba was having, that kept having ATF fluid leaks as well and could not fix it! (I am not even sure what would cause that!)
Well there a couple of choices here- buy a used one as mentioned above, or I have actually come across a couple of companies that remanufacture these autostick torque converters. I cannot speak to the quality of these as I have never tried one, but here is a link to one comany that does these:
http://www.gopnh.com/Automotive-Manufacturer.cfm?Manufacturer=Volkswagen&year=1969&Codes=&trans=&lockup=
Also, I came across this on craigslist, on the other side of the state from you:
https://joplin.craigslist.org/pts/d/vw-beetle-auto-stick/6350310036.html
He is selling the whole autostick transmission but he might be willing to ship you just the torque converter if you need it (I actually was going to buy the whole tranny with all the parts from him but I don't really need the TC so you can have it if you need it.)
Sounds very weird.. jagged metal?? some one must have had it apart ??? and damaged it???
Lee
I am so frustrated now.
Reassembled the 69 today with a rebuilt torque converter, balanced flexplate, new tc seal and it was leaking again from the tc seal within seconds of the test firing. I used the B tc seal, as has been used before. The as is a late model version, so the B seal should should be correct. Peened it, lubed, set the rebuilt tc in after filling it on the bench. I'm at a loss. Nothing about this has been easy, but I feel like Im doing something wrong or just missing something. I'm hoping for any assistance and/or advice. Thanks
After more research, it seems that the orange seals are better than the black. I have ordered these and will try one more time.
I have seen 4 different types of torque converter seals that do fit and do work. If the early black seal didn't work as good as the later orange seal with two lips which are partially filled with ATF Automatic Transmission Fluid, so the lips are lubricated from start up.... So the lips do not get HOT and wear down....
I also prefer the Orange seal later model... I am presuming that You do knock the seal into place correctly using a piece of PVC pipe [or similar] and when seated it has been peined in 3-4-5 placed so it cannot move or leak. Now, the pressure used to pein the seal may not be correct.. it is something that cannot be measured!!!
I'm no mechanic so I knock the seal in until it bottoms out, and then I Pein the seal around downwards. Maybe if the metal part of the seal has been damaged enough for the seal to loose tenson.....
One other thing , the copper/bronze bushing must be in excellent order...
Lee in Australia
So, today the seals from CIP1 came. The picture showed the orange one, but I found the black one instead.
Tomorrow, I will visit a friend and see of he has the orange seals.
If he doesnt, then I will try the black B seal ie more time, peen it 6 or 7 times and drench it in ATF. This has gotten old quickly.
The only down side I can see with the ATF seals is that they run in the same spot so the shaft may be slightly worn. The black one runs in a different place to the red ones. They measure just about the same Internal diameter. I just used a metal screw driver to peen the seal in 4-5 places... tapped with a small steel hammer... I've always be able to remove the seals when replacing them without damaging them... I've heard of the seals popping off if NOT peened... but can't remember any popping off if peened.. Don't forget to replace the two small seals inside the dual oil pump...
LEE in Australia
I just don't understand all this trouble lots of folks are having with the TC seals at all-- there are also a couple people over on the Samba with similar issues, one just gave up and went ahead and converted his much to my dismay. I replaced my TC seal about 2 years ago and there have been zero problems. Either these seals are not being manufactured properly anymore, or thre is something going wrong in the installation procedure--which I can't imagine what it could be. What are you using to tap the seal into place? I used a 36mm socket where I could tap it in evenly- could that possibly be the issue?
Are you absolutely sure it is leaking from the SEAL, and not the banjo hose fittings on the input/ output ATF hoses at the bell housing?
Update! After removing the engine and inspecting the tc seal, it appeared good. So, I looked at the one way clutch carrier and I could wiggle it. Not cool as they are bolted through the bell housing with socket head bolts. So, pulled the bell housing and found all 8 were loose!! As a result, the clutch carrier seal and gasket were toast. Replaced the seal and gasket and applied lock tite to the socket heads. I also put a new tc seal on while the clutch support was out and it made peening it much easier. Reassembled all of this and the tc that was just remanned didn't want to play. The babbet on the inside mating surface had cracked, so I didn't have clearance. My daughter brought my parts I had bought from Chicago and one of the tc was fine. Installed it, put the engine in, an no atf leaks. What a saga.
Now, about these damn flexplate bolts...
Took the bug out for a shakedown ride and it did well. No leaks now and running well. Thanks for all the help and I hope someone can learn from this saga.
Tim
LaLa it is FANTASTIC to hear you found the issue and got this straightened out-- thanks very much for the followup! I will definitely keep this in mind in case someone else has a similar issue- I can almost guarantee you the guy over on the samba that had a similar issue probably had the same problem with the clutch carrier. Wish I had known I would've told him how to fix it before he converted it!
SB001 et.al:
Glad you found your problem. In relation to your previous post on seals. See a post (I don't know how to paste it into here) "A tale of two seals" on this site. There are three seals available. The blac and orange one. The third one is also black but is an Indian or Chinese knockoff. The sealing surface on the knockoff one does not have any of the tiny oil carrier ridges cut into the sealing surface. In my case it failed (ripped apart) due to heat and lack of lubrication in less than 30 minutes. It literally tore apart. If you look at the sealing surface of the originals, both black and orange they have oil carrier ridges like any normal seal. The knock off looks identical but does not have the oil ridges. I believe these are sold by CIP 1. They will fail quickly every time. We should develop a warning section on the site to warn everyone of these issues. That is one of the reasons I wrote the post and put the pictures of the seals in. Since then I have read a couple other failures for the same reason.
Tom
Hi again Tom,
[/color]Yes that had Me stumped too, a seal falling apart, but I have found many chinese parts very inferior. It seems that they go on how the part looks. If it looks identical then it must be the same..!!! I have also heard of Chinese made parts with incorrect size holes or Pins... The Holes in some items in which a pin should be interference fit has been made larger so the pin will slip in easier???? or the pins have been made smaller to go thru the hole they were made to go thru... and I have also heard of items being made too large [so they would last longer???] but do not fit at all...
[/color]and I know of an Australian importer who has boxes of Chinese made distributors that just do not work... They look great but the springs in the distributor are made to length and size NOT TENSION.. so, naturally do NOT work at all...
[/color]
[/color]Lee in Australia [still VERY HOT 38c]