Hi all, our car is all up together and raring to go except the clutch plate have given up the ghost.
Conventional channels are proving impossible and no garage is willing to take the old plate out then wait a week while the old one gets relined.
So even a plate with worn friction faces would be ok as we could get it relined.
Although we would prefer one with a fair amount of wear left in it.
We are in the uk but that doesn't mean we cannot wire the money to you somehow.
PLEASE give us a message.
Regards
John
Hi,
Yes finding a new Autostick clutch plate can be difficult or impossible... and yes, the best way is to reline the clutch plate.... so, a used plate is needed to be relined... there must be one somewhere....
I can only remember a guy in the US who found a new one, but it measured exactly the same as His old one... as they do not wear like a manual clutch does, as the torque converter helps too... The clutch is either IN or OUT so virtually no slipping unless it is adjusted incorrectly....
best of luck...
Lee in Australia...
This might be more than you are looking to spend (especially with shipping), but EVWparts looks like they have them.
https://www.evwparts.com/vwparts/AutostickTrans/001141031A-Rebuilt.html
https://www.evwparts.com/vwparts/AutostickTrans/001141031A.html
There has to be one somewhere John, as many have been wrecked & off the road, plus some have been transformed into Manual cars.. Is it the clutch plate as shown worn out???? or is it the pressure plate that has lost its tension???? as I only know of one owner who bought a new clutch plate only to find it was identical to the used one He had... they shouldn't wear out unless they have done a lot of miles.... & has been slipping... which they shouldn't be doing... usually in or out...
You should be able to find someone to take the old plate out.... then You can get it refaced at a clutch/brake repairer... I believe the linings are identical to the manual beetle... [one of them]..?
Don't forget to replace the torque converter seal...
LEE in Australia
Hola Amigo's,
I can recommend Vintage Car Parts https://www.vintagecarparts.de/liste.php?set_shop=1&set_wg=12&set_markwg=0;84;12
Pricey but what value do you put on quality and peace of mind??
Hi All,
thanks ever so much for the replies.
Currently a local garage, who we normally only go to for MOTs (roadworthiness testing in the UK) has just struggled the engine and box out of our Speedster. They really did have trouble doing this.
They initially tried to separate the box from the engine and rang me to ask me about a bolt, about 2 o'clock, looking towards the engine from under the car. As far as they could tell, the bolt head was tight to the bell housing/torque converter and bits of the box seemed to be there to make it impossible to undo it as a socket would not go on, unlike the other 3 bolts. Even an open ended spanner was not really going to do it. So I advised them to take the engine and box out together.
So, once everything was disconnected it still took them 2 hours to do this, but it is now on the floor and they still cannot see an obvious way to get the bolt undone. Of course we can all see brutal ways of doing it, such as welding another nut to the head of the bolt, or cutting away the tiny offending part of the torque converter cover/bellhousing.
So we still don't know what the cause of the problem is.
So I would be enormously grateful if anyone knows anything about this odd bolt and the way in which its head is being deliberately prevented from being removed in any normal way. Sorry I cannot attach a pic as I didn't take a camera with me when I went to the garage today.
As for the clutch plate, the German place looks good, otherwise there is a company in the UK, Safetek, who say they will reline it.
I take on board all the points made by some of you that it is unlikely to have worn.
Also now worrying about where to get the gasket from that one of you mentioned. It is being sold so I may just ask them to seal it with some mastic, that black stuff that is now used officially for gaskets but whose name I have forgotten for the moment.
Anyway, thanks again and I'll keep you posted.
Looking forward to reading from you again.
John
WOWEEEE!
You guys will not believe this. Finally got the box separated from the engine and the clutch plate out.
Ordinary all makes garage with an interest in American cars and unusual cars, (Google Andy Saunders, really cool guy).
ANYWAY, as couldn't easily find a new or recon clutchplate, am sending it off to a company in Yorkshire, UK, who will reline it for £26 +Vat and carriage.
£26!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot believe it!!!
EVWparts want $150 + £75 core charge, for rebuilt or $250 for new!!! Vintagecarparts.de want €198 exchange.
So, you can see whay I am doing what I am doing.
Now just need to source a seal for the input shaft to the gearbox to stop the ATF leak.
I'll keep you posted, but seriously guys, if you have the same problem, this is the way to go!
I am never paying for a replacement clutch plate ever again.
Hi speedster,
glad to hear you found a soruce that will reline your clutch plate for cheap!
As for the torque converter seal VWHeritage in the UK has them. They have two based on year model:
https://www.vwheritage.com/001301083-oil-seal-for-the-transmission-shaft-on-a-automatic-gearbox-vw-spare
https://www.vwheritage.com/001301083b-oil-seal-for-the-transmission-shaft-on-a-automatic-gearbox-vw-spare
Hope this helps
Hi All,
tempted to say "If it seems too cheap it probably is". The clutch returned really quickly relined. I gave it to the garage to fit and, despite everything we have done, it just don't fit. When they went to bolt up the pressure plate, the bolts had become too short, so obviously they used longer bolts to pull it into a position where the proper one could be fitted. But this should not have been necessary, and was the first indication of a problem.
When they put it all back together the clutch wouldn't work. Servo stripped and whole system checked through, nothing wrong. So the arm that actuates the clutch was actuated physically with a pry bar while someone else tried to move the gears into gear, no luck.
The clutch has been relined too thick. So I rang the reliners and they admitted that they were not sure what thickness it should be so they relined it to what seemed to them to be correct. Obviously not! They also explained that a clutch only has to be .1 of a mm too thick to be a problem, as the aim is to release the clutch from the flywheel by just enough to free it.
So we are still desperate for a clutch plate of the correct dimensions, a second hand one with some wear in it would be fine, or, if anyone knows the correct thickness of the linings we would be grateful for the information so that we can get the plate machined back to the correct thickness.
So sad, and expensive in the long run.
John
Further to this, after days of research on the internet, it is obvious that no supplier will be forthcoming with the thickness of the replacement friction material. They all want to flog you their clutch plate at £200 roughly, plus carriage.
After long discussions with and research by the company that did the reline, it looks as if there is unlikely to be anything wrong with the plate. The same plate is apparently used in a Porsche and having found this out they could look into the thickness of the stuff on this one, and it turned out to be even thicker, 3.5 mill instead of the 3.2 mill they fitted. Also, the images I have managed to find show the rivets being quite deep.
So I have come to the conclusion that there has been a reassembly error rather than anything else. Apparently it has happened before.
So that is where we are. I have agreed with the garage that I will be there when they take out the gearbox, clutch and torque converter. So I hope that something will become obvious. But what does appear obvious is that if the mechanic could not put the pressure plate back on and tighten up the bolts without first using longer bolts to get it to where the normal length bolts will work, then something has been wrongly assembled.
We shall see.
Speed,
I got one IIRC, good cond etc blah blah - but definitely S/H. I can hook you up next week after I have gone and cleared my shed way down south.
$50 AUS + postage to send it to the UK?
HTH
Volkenstein
Volkenstein
we have been communicating on the other, technical, forum about this. Could you do ma a favour and measure the one you have? And post an image of the EDGE of it? I know there are two types and mine is the one made up of a series of leaves with springs in between. The actual thickness of the friction material is what is in question.
If we were at a different stage with all this I might well have bought yours, in fact I still may, if all else over here in Pm land goes wrong
Regards
John
Here is an image of the edge of mine, just taken off the car, far too thick at 9.14 uncompressed, with 3.2 mm of friction material.
Hope the house move is going ok.
regards
John
I think my description of the clutch as having leaves with "springs in between" is not entirely accurate. Each section is in fact made up of two 1 mm leaves of what must be spring steel, as when relaxed, they open up a tiny bit, to separate the two leaves to which the friction material is riveted. This tiny airgap closes up each time the clutch engages. As we now know that there are other clutches in these vehicles with solid plate clutches, this little air gap cannot be too important, but it just makes it a pain when measuring the things.
Hi Volksman,
If you have been following my other topic, you'll have seen by now that I now know that the clutch plate is in fact too thick. So it is going back to the company that relined it for machining back to 2.5 mm per side, unless I hear soon that someone like yourself has been able to measure the thickness of the friction material on a clutch like mine
But it would still be good if you could measure the edge of the material, you can just get the tip of a calliper into the space to measure the thickness.
Thanks ever so much for all the info and advice, it is really appreciated and without guys like you life in this filed would be much harder.
regards
John
Speedster,
My decidedly second hand plate measures 7 mm overall. One face is worn more than the other. This particular one, someone jammed it into
a 1300 TP manual. 8mm - 8.50 overall (including slight spring seperation) is good. Mike (Bookwus - RIP), Lee(68Autobug) and I discovered this years ago when we were comparing clutch
plate thicknesses. We found that a plate barely wore from new.
My crap is still in boxes so I measured with an eyeball and ruler.
Let me know if you need much more precision - I will have to find the box with calipers etc.
HTH
Volkenstein
Hi Volks
It having been removed Friday I have been able to measure it. The overall total uncompressed thickness of the relined clutch is 9.14 mm. The friction material is 3.2 mm each side, so maths tell me the plate minus friction material is 2.74 mm. Bearing in mind that this includes an air gap this is interesting in itself. Overall thickness is 8.3 mm compressed by a clamp. so the air gap is .84 mm, and metal thickness is 1.9 so I guess there is possibly some slight error here (clamp over-compressing the spring plates compared to what would happen on the car perhaps), as I expect the thin plates of metal that make up the two leaves are 1 mm each, which would make more sense.
So it has been sent off, or will be sent off by a mate who has a delivery franchise tomorrow. I have told the relining company to reduce the thickness of the friction material to 2.5 mm. This will get overall thickness down to 7.74 mm, which will leave it slightly thicker than your worn one but a fraction thinner than the 8 - 8.5 overall figure you mention. That could be OK, I think, but I'll ring them first thing tomorrow, before the box arrives, and tell them to aim for 8.0 mm overall. I think 2.6 may be a titchy bit better than 2.5 per side.
You'll see longer messages and a number of images if you go back to the technical forum where I have been posting lots as have others.
Interestingly, when it was first removed one side had worn and been contaminated but the other side seemed pristine. so similar to the one you have.
So thanks muchly for the effort, especially doing it in the middle of a house move. Heroic!
I know what you mean about trying to find stuff in boxes. House moving is a major pain, and you find stuff goes missing and then you find stuff you never even looked at since the last time you moved house. Don't know how often you move house where you live, but we tend to do it quite often and I have done it 6 times in fourteen years, over 2 marriages, not to mention furnishing our new place in France from scratch, in that case transporting everything the distance from the UK to south west France in a large trailer over a period of a few years.
Best of luck with it all and thanks again.
I'll keep you posted.
regards
John
Hi Volkenstein,
It occurred to me, as it should have done to the reliners, that the less worn side would have been a good place to go to to determine the likely thickness of new linings, as, as you say, they tend not to wear much usually, and they are definitely lined to the same thickness on both sides, it is just that one side tends to wear more than the other.
I wish to God that the reliners had had the sense to do just that. would have saved a lot of time, trouble and expense, (we are dreading the bill for removing and replacing engine twice and gearbox once from our "special".)
All the Best
Speedster
Hi John
I know this topic is old but I have 2 clutch plates, both used but plenty of wear left on them, open to reasonable offers, based in South Yorkshire
Cheers
Steve
Hi Airhead,
Thanks for your kind offer. The problem now is not one of getting a plate of the right thickness but of getting around the fact the garage just cannot seem to fit it. We had to move foreward with things as we were leaving to go to live in France for 6 months odd, as we normally do every year. So they told us they'd fixed it. We had to pay to get it out.
They haven't fixed it at all, there is an awful noise until revved a bit and it is impossible to change gear. I had to start it in gear, then drive it home in "second" (middle one of the three).
Barely made it home as they had also, without my agreement, had it "tuned" by an "expert on VWs" who didn't even get the engine warm. It suffers with the usual flatspot down to being twin Webers which although a pain can be got over in a manual car, but is dangerous in an Autoshift.
So it sits on our drive wrapped up until I can attend to it, but I have a kitchen install to finish and I have recently chipped a bone in my thumb. So this has cost us £1500, for more or less nothing.
See you on the forum, there is another thread all about the ins and out of this, can't remember where though.
Again thanks for the offer.
John
Hi,
I see You are back from France and the problem is still there.... The main problem with autosticks is that NO ONE knows how to repair one or even know how they work.... I wouldn't let any Mechanic touch My car as I built it, and I know how easy it is to damage components etc.... You may have to get a used plate and use that.... The Clutch plates do not wear much as they are nearly instantly In or Out..... and I know You have spent a lot of money already and your car should be ready to drive for many many kilometres now....
I just hope they haven't damaged anything else....
Best of Luck
Lee in Australia....
I've got plans for "outside the box" ways of fixing the clutch.
but what annoys me the most is that the screeching sound that occurs at tickover and just a bit above, is likely to be either the thrust bearing or whatever it's called (forgotten) or another bearing someoen mentioned on another thread and I just KNOW that the gearbox and clutch are going to have to come off to fix it. And I am not sure U can do that on my own especially as I have no four post lift or anything. doing it in a speedster is a whole different ballgame to doing it in an ordianry VW Beetle.
Speedster,
Not having come across a speedster replica - first thing is - can your engine come out without a four poster hoist? If it needs to - oh woe.
Regards
Volkenstein
As I said in my last post, no I have no 4 or even 2 post lift.
I do have a mobile engine hoist and two engine hoists of the tradtitional variety.
Although I am used to taking conventional engines and gearboxes out and have done them working in an ordinary double or even single garage, I have never taken a VW beetle engine out.
Obviously I have read up on it and I do understand that it should be relatively easy as long as you know to basically support the engine from underneath then lift the rear of the body and chassis up in the air. Or lower the engine to the floor.
BUT being a Speedster, this isn't possible.
Only with a 4 post lift, two or three guys who can take the weight and a ton of fiddling, as this is what the garage had to do as one bolt threw them and they couldn't see how to undo it. The bolt was on the top connecting the gearbox to the engine, more or less, could have been to the torque converter but whatever it was they had to take the whole engine-gearbox assembly out in one. Then they discovered the "bolt" was in fact just slid in there, nothing to undo at all. They replaced it with a proper one.
From then on, they just put it the engine back in then the gearbox/torque converter assembly. If I have to take the box off, I will have to raise the whole car on ramps and axle stands, big ones like I use for my Land Rovers, and take it from there. But it is amazingly tight. Also, to separate the clutch from the box I think I have to drain the oil and fiddle about inside the box. Not really sure.
I have given some real thought to getting the clutch to release and I have come up with a couple of ways of doing this. It is obvious that the clutch plate is now the right thickness, or if not, can only be off by a couple of thou. So I am going to play with how the diaphragm can is mounted, to see if I can move it further away from the gearbox, this would automatically move the arm in the right direction. If I cannot do that, I could separate the mechanism, i.e. the bottle screw and the parts it screws to, and saw off a couple of mmm here and a couple of mm there to enable the arm to pull just that bit further to free the clutch off.
What is really annoying is knowing I could do that without having to even move the car from where it is parked, outside on the gravel drive. But to shut the squeal up, whatever it is, I am more or less sure I am going to have to get the box, clutch, etc off. And I cannot get either into the garage or even to the garage door as the garage is still full of stuff for the kitchen and utility room which I still have to finish, (I recently chipped a bone in my thumb and am not really supposed to do anything much in the DIY line for a few weeks). In front of the garage are 2 Land Rovers deliberately left there blocking it from intruders when we are in France. Now they are blocking me! Neither will be easy to start, one hasn't started for 2 years at least!.
I also don't know anyone with experience on Beetles except the garage that fitted it originally and he was difficult when we asked him to do the clutch change at the beginning of the year. He didn't want to do the job as it would have blocked up his lift for a week or so and he no longer does the sort of work he used to do. So we got an offer to do it from the other garage and when they got stuck they rang the specialist and he started off awkward with "that was my job" type remarks , which none of us could understand. Although in the end he did become very helpful, emailing then digarams that I didn't have.
So now we have the clutch-plate, and especially if I can get it to release properly, the specialist might be more willing to take it on again and get the job finished, but having already paid £1500 to have it ferked up by the non-specialists neither I, nor the wife, whose car it is, want to have to spend yet more money to get it sorted. She is more willing to throw money at it than I am but then that is more me being bliddy stubborn and hating to let any car get the better of me.
Plus I also have to tune it back to how it was when I took it to the garage. The bloke there thought it sounded awful so he employed, completely unknown to us, a tuning specialist who apparently works on Beetle specials all the time and does dragsters etc. But the bloke didn't realise that the rattly engine, when warm, makes a lovely noise so didn't need touching at all, and the "tuner" tuned it cold, so it started and ran fine until it got warm and then it became a death trap as the usual flat spot just off tickover, (twin Webers) came in with a vengeance. In a manual car there are solutions to it but in an Autostick it really is deathly trying to pull onto a roundabout with a dying engine.
So watch this space! Maybe after Xmas I'll be able to get back to it.
Have a lovely Christmas!
john
Hi Speedsterautoshift
Whereabouts are you in the UK
Airhead
Ferndown, East Dorset.
John
Speedster,
Locked down in France still?
Regards
Volkenstein
I wish, no we didn't manage to get to France before the lockdown. Missed it by about 5 days, tickets bought and everything.
We'd be a lot safer over there.
In a pretty safe part of the UK but La Montagne Noire is even better. Plus France as a whole is better as we have a bunch of complete idiots running the country, hence we have more deaths per million population than any country in the world.
All we can do is hope for a trip over there before Brexit comes in to put the icicng on our sh!t cake! :(
Things OK with you? ;)