Hiya All,
This is my first time dropping this particular engine.
I've dropped lots of VW engines, most of the manual tranny variety, but all from the 68 to 70 era. After all, I am a 1970 kinda guy. Last time I did engines I had a local shop (they had a great deal on a sound AS engine) do the installation. I bought a 73 AH series engine from them.
Well, I got all the wiring and lines disconnected. Removed a bunch of stuff from the engine bay for an easier drop. Got all the ATF lines accounted for, etc, etc. But I've run into a unique problem. Namely, the upper left engine to tranny bolt. It seems that after 70 there is no longer a nut at this point. Instead VW opted to run a bolt through from the tranny side. The bolt screws into a boss in the engine casting. So................the bolt HAS to be removed from the tranny side. But How? I can't even get a wrench or a socket on the thing. It's head is tucked under the clutch arm behind the servo. Even if I remove the heat exchanger and the servo it's going to be darn near impossible to get to it.
So I'm wondering, do all of you post-1970 guys have some sort of trick to get this thing loose? PLEASE SHARE!
By the way, the engine is coming out to make way for a bone stock 1970 engine. Yay! No more nasty bolt! Welcome good old nut!
Do you still have the fan shroud on the motor? Also how much tin is left on the motor?
Hiya 72,
Very interesting question!
I did attempt to remove the fan shroud with the engine in place so I would have a bit better access to the engine tranny connection. This fan shroud does not want to come off. I went through all the disconnects. Even checked it through Bentley. The fan shroud seems to be solidly hung up on the left side. Yep, left side bolt is out and the flap connecting lever is off.
So, it would seem that this bolt has to be approached from the front of car, transmission side.
As to removals in the engine bay (as well as the usual stuff)..........I have the carburetor off, the distributor off, and the rear tin off. Rear decklid and supports are also off. In the past I've found the removal of these items makes the drop a lot easier. And if I could get this fan shroud to move, I'd have the generator out too.
Hiya All,
Still no progress on the bolt.
But I have made a list of things to do............
1. Use a swivel on the end of a long extension.
2. Try to somehow push the bolt through from the engine side. This approach is predicated on the (slight) possibility that the bolt is not actually secured to the engine case. And that the larger threaded hole (maybe) in the engine case is simply hung up on the threads of the bolt.
3. Remove the heat exchangers and the clutch servo for possible better access.
4. Return to trying to remove the fan shroud for better possible access.
5. Lift my digital camera up into the area to take a closer look at the bolt head. If this works, I'll post up some pictures.
6. Curse, scream, and throw things.
While not all of the above will lead to direct results, some may provide more information or make me feel a lot better.
I had the same problem when I removed my fan shroud. However, since mine was torn up anyway I just tor it out. I believe the part that was hanging on mine was the oil cooler. For some reason it just would not give up. If you can manage to take off the shroud however there is literally nothing between you and that bolt. Either a socket or a crows foot wrench can take it off at this point.
Im guessing the fender is still on the car so getting at it from a good angle is the rough part.
Hiya 72,
Quote from: 72VDub on 26 February 2008, 19:13
............... If you can manage to take off the shroud however there is literally nothing between you and that bolt. Either a socket or a crows foot wrench can take it off at this point........
I don't think so. You see, there is no nut involved here and the bolt head is on the tranny side (take a look at the pictures below). On the engine side there is merely a boss in the casting to accept that bolt. The bolt APPEARS to be threaded through the boss and it protrudes into the engine bay from that boss a few millimeters. Bentley says that the upper left hand engine to tranny bolt in post 70 cars must be removed from the tranny side.
And speaking of the tranny side, this is what it looks like................................
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/Bug/IMG_0811.jpg)
Sorry about the out of focus thing but I'm sure you can appreciate the circumstances. The large dark mass to the right is the servo and the curving piece over the bolt head is the clutch arm. Here is a better shot of the situation........
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/Bug/IMG_0813.jpg)
This one gives a better idea of just how hard it might be to get a socket on that bolt head. The pictures (even though they are fuzzy) seem to suggest that bolt head is locked in place. And if that is the case, I don't understand how the bolt was screwed into the engine boss. Then again, maybe it wasn't (that brings us back to #2 in my post above).
Ideas are still very welcome. And 72, if I interpreted your advice above incorrectly, don't hesitate to set me straight. I need all the help I can get on this one!
Close but backwards. For some reason I recall there being a tin peice above the bellhouse, firewall tin perhaps, and that is what seems to be behind the arm in the second picture.
I guess my advice was alittle misleading, but what I was trying to say is with the shroud out you should be able to reach in from a better angle. When I said nothing between you and the bolt I meant no servo to go around. All in all it is not out in the open but you should be able to get to it to remove it.
Hiya 72,
Quote from: 72VDub on 26 February 2008, 20:15
Close but backwards. For some reason I recall there being a tin peice above the bellhouse, firewall tin perhaps, and that is what seems to be behind the arm in the second picture. I guess my advice was alittle misleading, but what I was trying to say is with the shroud out you should be able to reach in from a better angle. When I said nothing between you and the bolt I meant no servo to go around. All in all it is not out in the open but you should be able to get to it to remove it.
OK, I gotcha! Makes sense to me now. You are right about the tin in the picture. Actually I tried reaching in, from the engine compartment, through the hole in that tin for the doghouse air vent. That would be the same approach you are advocating except the tin and shroud were still in the way.
I think right now that I will go with removing the clutch servo and the left side heat exchanger for a better look. I want to stay away from that shroud until its my last option. I really don't want to take the chance of trashing it...........yet. I gotta get just a little more desperate
Hey Book, I have a 74 and just finished putting the engine back in(shroud and all). The bolt you are refering to can be removed with about 18 inches of extension. The socket has to be put between the clutch arm and the bell housing. It doesn't look like you can get a socket on there but you can. Imagine the extension running straight out of the bolt head and 18 inches long. Any shorter and you can not get a rachet on it. I did remove the heater tube to get more room. I used a 1/2 inch drive socket that was straight on the outside (no shoulder). I think the socket will need to be kinda thin. The cheap set I have for 3/8 seemed to get caught on the servo bracket and wouldn't go on the bolt head far enough to hold. If you have noticed, expensive sockets are made of better steel and are thinner. SK, Snap on, and strangely the NAPA tools in 1/2 inch drive. Let us know!
Hey Book
I did notice when I removed my engine back in november that the bolt that you are having trouble with was actually missing from the engine. There were only 3 bolts holding the engine on. I also noticed that the bolt would have had to have been pretty long if it was in place. Maybe 69' they experimented and the previous owner removed the bolt? Good luck on getting the booger out.
Hiya green,
Oh yeah!
I'll give it a shot! And I'll keep my fingers crossed.
The problem I'm starting to think is that my situation is a little unique in that I have a 73 engine mated up to a 70 transaxle. That 70 transaxle has a bolt stop casted in to lock that bolt in position. In an all stock 70s the upper left bolt is connected to a nut on the engine case side. Remove that nut (with the tranny case holding the bolt head) and you're on your way. However this 73 engine is not held by a nut. Because of the doghouse oil cooler VW placed a boss in the engine case to accept the upper left bolt. The bolt passes through the boss and extends into the engine compartment a few millimeters.
Of course, if one stops to think about this arrangement, it would seem to be impossible. How can one turn the bolt head to engage the boss in the engine case when the tranny is locking it in place?
But I'll give that looooong extension a try.
Hiya Chris,
Quote from: Chris the Eagle on 27 February 2008, 01:08 ......... Good luck on getting the booger out.
And that's exactly what it is!
Hiya All,
Here's what the situation looks like on the engine side of all this.........
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/Bug/IMG_0815.jpg)
And no, that is not a nut. Unless nuts are perfectly round.
Hey again, Yeah I thought that the boss was really close on mine and that was causing me to use the thin socket. The bolt in the picture doesn't look like it has a washer under the bolt head which is causing it to be even harder to get a socket on! I think you are correct that the earlier bell housing was not designed for the bolt arrangement and probably wasn't properly modified for the newer engine resulting in your difficulty now. Dadgum P.O.'s!!! I think the closeness of the bolt head to the bell housing is a design compromise. One of the few VW ever allowed in the aircooled line IMHO. Probably had the great engineers on another project, or retired. Let us know!
Yep, not a nut. Exactly like mine.
Hiya green,
Well, I'll go out and play with it for a bit and see if I can make anything happen. I'm coming down this prioritized "to do" list.
1. See if I can get this thing turning via the "green" method. Might have to round myself up a thinwall socket.
2. Remove the servo and heat exchanger for better access.
3. Get out my old Army Field Manual on explosives from my Combat Engineer days.
If you have to blow it up let me know how much it takes for future reference! Oh and please please please take video!
Wow
a round nut and a hex headed bolt??
Mine has half round headed bolts on both sides..
like a starter motor bolt ...
and I use nyloc nuts on the engine side...
My Son has a set of ratchet ring spanners [which are expenisve]
but makes undoing those two nuts much easier and much faster than normal tools..
actually. on My gearbox I'm installing in My car at the moment,
the top LHS bolt was a normal hexagon headed bolt with a Nut welded onto the top...
so, any idea how to get the Round nut off...
is it pressed into the engine ??
so that You must use a socket on the gearbox end??
maybe they changed the way they were fitting those bolts..?? in the factory..
something else I didn't know??
Lee
Hiya Lee,
Quote...........so, any idea how to get the Round nut off...
is it pressed into the engine ??
so that You must use a socket on the gearbox end??
maybe they changed the way they were fitting those bolts..?? in the factory......
As to that "round nut".............At this point in the game I'm not really sure just what that is. I have been going on the assumption that it is actually a part of the engine case. A boss into which the bolt is secured.
If that "round nut" is, indeed, a part of the engine case then the only way of removal would be from the transmission side. I would have to find some way of applying leverage (socket, wrench, hammer & chisel, dynamite) to the bolt head.
In point of fact Lee, the factory did change the engine mounting method with respect to the upper left hand bolt (my current nemesis) with the beginning of the 1971 production year to accomodate the doghouse oil cooler. Of course, my problem is that I have a 1973 engine mated up to a 1970 AS tranny. And I think that is the real "source" of this (hopefully) unique little problem.
I'll report back when I do find out just what's going on. Thankfully I'm not under any time related constraints. The new engine won't be here for some time yet. I do have other obligations and I also have other sources of transportation, so I'm going to go at this a little on the liesurely side. I do not want get frustrated and do something I'll wind up regretting.
Hey Guys, On my engine there is a boss instead of a pressed in nut or round thingy. You will have to remove that bolt from the trans side. If you have a welder, maybe you could weld a longer bolt to the bolt head and remove it that way. Tight working though. Good luck!
Hiya green,
Thanks!
I really need a little luck about now.
Hi Mike,
Now I see in the fuzzy photo Your problem
the gearbox was designed for the half round bolt head
but when a hexagon bolt is fitted....
the hex head is too close to the part that holds the half round headed bolt..
so, thats Why One of My spare gearboxes had a hex headed boly
with a nut welded to it....
I couldn't work it out ...
now i understand...
You can get long sockets...
but You probably have to buy a set...??
then using an extension and a large Hammer
knock the socket onto the Hexagon head...??
Whether that will work, I don't know...
but someone did put it in.....
Maybe the original type of bolts for this engine have a Long hex head.??
still, that not helping You...
When you say DROP the engine ;D ;D ;D
You mean lower it slowly... :D :D :D
Best of luck...
Lee
Only thing better than a beetle is another beetle
[/b]
Hey again Book, Just a little encouragement and a reminder that someone actually put that bolt in there so you can get it out! Probably just an expanded vocabulary away. Let us know how you finally get it out.
Just remember Mike,
Nothing IS impossible....
just a darn sight harder....
Best of Luck...
the bolt with the nut welded to it - I have..
the nut was welded roughly and crooked
so I believe it was welded onto the bolt while still in the car....
Lee
Lee
i just installed an engine on a 71 AS SB and recall this bolt fondly. 12" straight ext with 3" snap-on wobble ext with 17mm shallow socket loosely attached so it wobbled. 24" flex head ratchet and both hands near where the heater tube goes into car. i recall throttle cable giving me grief so it was manhandled out of the way. came out pretty easy after access was made. left it in place while engine was out. for installation i actually was able to get my craftsman 14.4v cordless 1/4 dr cordless into place with a 3/8 adapter and the 3" wobbly rig. karma was on my side i guess cause i only lost one knuckle's worth of skin from one slip. my builder was hip to the insert and had a new one pressed into an ae block for me. these vws are new to me but i have to admit i would rather work on these 30 year old 4 bangers than the new ford 6.0 diesels. simplicity is a blessing.
Hiya tow,
Quote from: towbozo on 08 March 2008, 21:39
........simplicity is a blessing.
It is indeed! And welcome to the forum!
Hiya All,
I'm reviving this old thread to give it a little closure.
If you scan through this thread you'll see it's about my difficulties in removing one of the transaxle to engine bolts. Difficulties is putting it mildly! In a followup thread (Isn't This Dandy) I showed that somebody had shaved the head of this particular bolt which made it that much more difficult to remove.
Basically, my problem was that the method of attachment at this bolt hole had changed from 1970 (the year of my car and transmission) to 1973 (the year of my engine). The 1970 had locking tabs on the case which held the bolt head in one position. Removal was by undoing a nut on the engine side. But the 1973 engine has a boss casting into which the bolt threads. Somebody had actually threaded this bolt into the engine casting and, at the same time, managed to (just about) lock it in place with the locking tabs on the tranny side.
So I pulled the transmission and found this......
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/Bug/IMG_0922.jpg)
You can see the locking tabs cast into the transmission case above. The scratches, gouges, and craters are the result of the fight to get that bolt outta that hole.
I determined that it would be best to remove the locking tabs and go back the 1970 style of securing the bolt, namely with a nut on the engine side. So, I ground down the tabs and wound up with this.....
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/Bug/IMG_0925.jpg)
I don't think I'm going to have a similar problem in the future.
Oh! And for what it might be worth, this why I'm an AutoStickin' guy.........
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/Bug/IMG_0924.jpg)
That's the AS tranny from my 70 Bug.
Hi Mike
My gearbox has a half round headed bolt on bolt sides
starter motor and this LHS
the raised bits on the gearbox actually hold the head of the half round bolt
so it only takes one person to put the nut on...
[if You are lucky] I take the jack down a smidgen after the engine is mated
to the gearbox and weight holds the bolts in place...
LEE