My 1968 VW 1500 Automatic recently decided to quit on me. The Autostick seems to be the problem. Everything seems fine when idling inn free gear, but attempts to shift into any gear result in the scraping sound people unfamiliar with stick shift make.
I put the car in a garage, but they can?t figure it out, so hints on what could be the cause of the problem will be greatly appreciated.
Hiya Auto,
The first thing you need to understand is that shifting in an AutoStick is an ELECTRICAL function with a VACUUM assist. The grinding you are hearing indicates that you are most likely having problems with the electrical or vacuum components in your shifting "system". Do also know that your actual transmission is not likely to be the source of your problems. It is very hardy and not prone to breakdown if it is reasonably maintained.
The second thing to know is that VERY FEW garage mechanics know anything about AutoSticks. In fact, unless you know that your mechanic has AutoStick experience, take anything he/she says with a large grain of salt.
So, what does all this mean? Check out your electrical shift components as follows..........
1. Make sure the in-line fuse to the control valve is intact and functioning.
2. Make sure that the control valve solenoid is properly connected and the contacts are bright and shiny.
3. Make sure that the connection from the shift lever under the rear seat is connected.
4. Make sure that the line (it should be blue if original) coming from the bottom of the shift lever is intact. It can lose insulation at the point where it exits the shift lever and ground out.
5. Make sure the points inside the shift lever are in good shape and properly gapped.
6. Crawl under the car and make sure that the connections for your nuetral safety switch and overheat switch are bright and shiny.
If you still have the grinding problem at this point you will need to.........
1. Remove the control valve solenoid and test it for function.
2. Inspect your wiring runs for fraying and possible shorts.
That will cover the electricals. Checking the vacuum will involve..............
1. Inspect the hoses leading to the control valve. All large hoses (3 of them) should be wire reinforced so they will not collapse when the engine is running and creating a vacuum. Check for that.
2. Check the connections for all the hoses including the small hose from the control valve which leads over to the carburetor.
3. This step will be a bit difficult, but........check the function of your clutch servo. The actual checking is very easy, but the servo is hard to get to.
Still grinding?
1. Pull your Vacuum Assist Tank and check for leakage
Now, after all this I'm betting that you will have found the source of your problem. In fact, I'd guess that you'll find the source of your problem pretty early in the above list. But if you have not, then you'll need to look at adjusting your clutch freeplay.
In the interests of bandwidth I've not included the "how-to" for any of the above steps. To do any of this you'll need to do two things. Get yourself a Bentley Manual - it will detail any of the above steps. And check back here with any questions you may have. This is a great resource for an AutoStick owner - make sure you take advantage of it.
Thank you for a most excellent reply. I have now ordered the Bentley book, plus the few spare parts available at Cip1 just to have them ready if needed. I look forward to look into it myself, though I have no experience working on the autostick.
Hiya Auto,
Don't sweat it! You'll do fine.
The Bentley is, by far, the best manual for AutoStick related work. However, it does tend to be a bit technical and it does assume that you have a base of knowledge and often assumes that you have the correct tools. In other words, even with the Bentley, you can get stumped. That's why this forum is here. When you run up against it, bring your problems, frustrations, and questions here. I'm not saying that we can guarantee an answer, but we can probably work through it and get you on the right track. There are folks here who have already been down that path, so there is no need to "reinvent the wheel".
Finally, do make a habit of checking in and keeping us up-to-date. Especially on what works for you and what doesn't. That helps to educate the rest of us so we can help the next guy.
I am gonna get me a Bentley book as well.
Excellent replies in this thread very helpful to me as well
Thanks
And it's actually cheaper to get things from CIP and get them to post to the UK :)
I've got exactly the same problem with my new '68
I suspect a microswitch problem. With the ignition on (engine not running), I can hear the control valve clicking when I rock the gearstick, but only when the car is in gear. If the car is in neutral, rocking the gearstick does nothing.
Should the control valve click when rocking the gearstick when it's in neutral?
Thanks!
Rodrich,
Yes it should. Sounds like the contact point and upper gearstick need a clean/adjust.
Regards
Volkenstein
Right. I still have problems, and I'm not sure what to look for now....
Gearstick contacts work fine, and servo works fine - I can see that with the engine running, the clutch lever is pulled in. I've used a test lamp to check that the control valve is getting the right inputs from the gearstick, and it is:
Control valve actuated when car is in neutral (so clutch lever pulled in)
With the car in gear, the control valve is not actuated (clutch lever out)
Rock the gearstick forward or back, when the car is in gear, and the control valve is actuated (clutch lever pulled in)
Checking with a separate wire on the control valve terminal 31 to temporarily earth it (as the microswitch would do), the clutch lever can be pulled in and out, suggesting no problems with the vacuum side of things.
I've adjusted the servo pushrod according to spec. Car will go into gear with the engine off
So - electrical side of things is fine, vacuum side of things is fine, so why won't the car go into gear with the engine running? All I can think of is that a clutch fork may have broken, or the t/o bearing may have broken up.
Does anyone have any other ideas before I pull the engine to have a look, only to find that whatever has broken is unobtainable.....
Thanks
If it helps, there is resistance when I manually pull in the clutch control arm (vacuum hose off), so it does feel like the clutch pressure plate is being depressed (I can't actually pull it in by hand, there's so much resistance) I'm stumped. Highly unlikely that the clutch disc is worn out - the car has done 60,000 miles from new. Unlikely that the clutch disc is stuck - the car was driving fine until 2 weeks ago, when it just stopped shifting all of a sudden. Unlikely that it's gearbox internals, as it goes into gear fine with the engine off.
What else could it possibly be? I have a feeling that even if I pull the engine, I'm not going to see anything wrong...
Rhodrich,
A couple of things..
How did you adjust the servo pushrod and by how much? Are we talking clutch freeplay adjustment here?
How do you know the clutch arm is moving? Are you looking at it while someone else tries while it is up on stands or some such?
Lee has had a loose clutch arm pinch bolt. You might want to check it's buttoned up to spec or hasn't fatigue failed.
I don't think it would be a gear fork as you wouldn't be able to get a positive shift even with the engine off. Ditto for the T-O bearing..it's huge and if there was a problem you'd hear it! A broken clutch arm fork? Possible..although that seems remote. I know of no-one who has done that on a semi-auto. Mike? Lee? with your years of semi-auto experiences, ever hear of one or both the forks snapping off the shaft?
Last thing I can ask is..what happened the last time it shifted? Parked the car and walked away and next thing no shifting?
HTH
Volkenstein
Quote from: volkenstein on 14 January 2008, 13:03
Rhodrich,
A couple of things..
How did you adjust the servo pushrod and by how much? Are we talking clutch freeplay adjustment here?
How do you know the clutch arm is moving? Are you looking at it while someone else tries while it is up on stands or some such?
Lee has had a loose clutch arm pinch bolt. You might want to check it's buttoned up to spec or hasn't fatigue failed.
I don't think it would be a gear fork as you wouldn't be able to get a positive shift even with the engine off. Ditto for the T-O bearing..it's huge and if there was a problem you'd hear it! A broken clutch arm fork? Possible..although that seems remote. I know of no-one who has done that on a semi-auto. Mike? Lee? with your years of semi-auto experiences, ever hear of one or both the forks snapping off the shaft?
Last thing I can ask is..what happened the last time it shifted? Parked the car and walked away and next thing no shifting?
HTH
Volkenstein
I've adjusted up the servo pushrod such that there is 4mm of thread in view when the release arm is pushed back towards the bell housing (vacuum pipe off). The pushrod seems to be as short as it can be (as I want to be sure that the clutch is being depressed)
I know the clutch arm is moving as I've started the engine with the car jacked up, and have observed that the arm is fully pulled into the servo when the car is in neutral. I've also run a temporary ground wire to terminal 31 on the control valve, and can pull the arm in and out when that temporary wire is grounded. From using a test light, I can see that terminal 31 on the CV is getting the right inputs from the gear stick. I've even run the test wire to permanently ground terminal 31 (so the clutch is depressed), and tried shifting then, but it still won't go into gear, even though I can see with my own eyes that the clutch release arm is pulled fully into the clutch servo.
It was running and shifting fine, until about 1/2 a mile from home, it stopped shifting smoothly. Managed to get it into gear by matching engine speeds (using the syncromesh on the gearbox, as you would shift without using a clutch on a manual), to bring it home, but as soon as it stopped, it wouldn't go into any gear, suggesting that the clutch is not disengaging.
I would imagine if the clutch pinch bolt had come loose, there wouldn't be any resistance on the clutch release arm when I pulled it back into the servo (vacuum hose off), when there is a great deal of resistance, suggesting that the clutch is being depressed. I've tried feeling where the pinch bolt is, and I can't feel any movement there, but I'll try and have a look using a shaving mirror.
I've had clutch release forks snap on a manual bug before, and there was no resistance on the clutch pedal - it just fell to the floor, so I don't think it's that either.
I just can't think what it might be otherwise, unless the clutch plate has somehow glued itself to the torque convertor, or something's gone bad in the transmission itself. Very, very odd indeed.
I have been offered another scrap '68 AS with a good transmission, so I might swap that in. It's 200 miles away though, so I'm currently trying to see if I can get it transported.
In the meantime, if anyone can think of anything I may have missed, please let me know.
Many thanks for your help everyone.
Hiya Rho,
I've been following this thread and you have some good advice from Sean. Also, it sounds to me that you know your way around cars and have taken a sound, methodical approach to the problem. As we go on, it's looking more and more like the problem is inside the bellhousing.
However, one piece of advice...............if you have not already done so, pull the oval inspection plate atop the rear of the central tunnel and take a good look at your shift coupler. Given your symptoms, it's just possible that your shift coupler could be slipping. In any event, it's so easy to check that it's worth the time to do it. And, if it saves you an engine pull................
Best of luck!
Have checked coupling now. There's a bit of play in it (and I suspect the shift rod bush needs replacement), but neither of these I believe would be serious enough to warrant the problems I'm facing. I had a '64 manual bug a while ago that occasionally wouldn't go into second gear due to a worn coupling, but it didn't crunch when I tried to put it in gear, it just refused to even move into position, and just went into 4th instead.
With the engine off, my AS shifts into all gears, and I know it goes into reverse as the reverse lights come on. Turn the engine on, and it grinds :(
Looking more and more like a clutch issue, but I cannot think of anything that would prevent a clutch disengaging, except if it was rusted, and that only happens when a car has been standing for a long time.
I guess if the clutch disc had disintegrated, there's a possibility that this could cause seizure, but I've never heard of this happening.
Rhodrich,
A couple of thoughts. Do you know the history of the vehicle? Heaven forbid if a PO listened to a dealer saying "stick it in top and drive all day!!!". That might have accelerated plate wear. Grinding is usually associated clutch problems if not with electrical/vacuum problems, which you've already eliminated. How about this, is your servo bracket flexing/moving when you actuate the solenoid? That is cheaper than my next suggestion which is to re-set your servo rod to stock initial measurements as well as re-setting your clutch arm on it's shaft. There is a thread, "another autostick problem" started by dfrommi that has pics and instructions for doing this. PITA, but it's your time/effort and not your wallet for the moment ;D
HTH
Volkenstein
Quote from: volkenstein on 15 January 2008, 03:00
Rhodrich,
A couple of thoughts. Do you know the history of the vehicle? Heaven forbid if a PO listened to a dealer saying "stick it in top and drive all day!!!". That might have accelerated plate wear. Grinding is usually associated clutch problems if not with electrical/vacuum problems, which you've already eliminated. How about this, is your servo bracket flexing/moving when you actuate the solenoid? That is cheaper than my next suggestion which is to re-set your servo rod to stock initial measurements as well as re-setting your clutch arm on it's shaft. There is a thread, "another autostick problem" started by dfrommi that has pics and instructions for doing this. PITA, but it's your time/effort and not your wallet for the moment ;D
HTH
Volkenstein
The car has one previous owner (I even have a picture of her posing with the car when it was new!), and 101,000KM from new. That said, I'm not sure how she drove it....
The servo bracket is not flexing - I'm pretty sure of that.
I've arranged to go and pick up this donor car on Saturday, so will just swap the engine and box from that one into mine (that's a 1500, and mine's only a 1300, so a bit of a performance increase as well!). For the price the donor has been offered to me, this seems to be the easiest option - I should be able to part out the rest of the car to get most of my money back, and still give me a supply of spare parts.
I will be sure to find out what caused the problem once the old box is out.
Final question (for now) - I live in the UK, and there doesn't appear to be a UK supplier of torque convertor seals. Is it possible to split the engine and gearbox without having to replace this?
Hiya rho,
Torque converter seals are not all that hard to locate. Online at eVW Parts here in the states. I even have a collection of TC seals. So don't worry too much about putting your hands on a new seal.
Rhodrich,
Yes it can be done. Undo flex plate bolts, move the TC back from the plate and secure it using wire or such like through the bolt tabs. Undo gearbox bolts and carefully seperate the engine and GB. If the TC falls off...you have to get a new TC seal.
As Mike has mentioned, Evwparts is your friend and they ship. I buy a lot of A-S specific gear off them. E.g. They're the only guys I know of who have a COMPLETE oil pump seal/gasket kit.
Enjoy
Volkenstein
I don't think its worth the trouble
Not to replace the TC seal
as the seal will be really hard and NON flexible [if its old]
and if the sealing surface is moved slightly by the torque converter, its going to leak...
Sean,
Do You use any sealant on the TC seals??
I just peened Mine over in 4 spots..
I've had no problems before without a sealant..
Lee
incidently,
that is My old torque converter oil seal painted yellow...
so it would stand out in the photo...
Lee
Well I went to pick up the donor car last Saturday. Should be putting in the donor transmission this coming weekend.
Cutting up cars is great fun!
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o49/rhodrich/SemiAuto/Semi-Auto021.jpg)
A beetle chassis fits into a T3 transporter without a problem:
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o49/rhodrich/SemiAuto/Semi-Auto029.jpg)
Rhodrich,
Score the Sprintstars as well? My neighbours had to enjoy the screaming 9" with a cut-off wheel for a while. I had a hole burn through my overalls :o
Lee,
Sealant on the seal? No, I wouldn't do that. Mine was a very tight fit (the Orange one I have) and the peining will hold it.
Enjoy
Volkenstein
Thats good news Sean, as I didn't want to remove it...
it was a nice tight fit..
and i usually don't use sealant on seals..
cheers
Lee
Well the donor gearbox has gone in, and it's all working perfectly, so it does look like there was a clutch problem. I've not taken the old box apart yet.
(And no - the sprintstars weren't included in the deal....)
Thanks for everyone's help :)
Thats a rare one...
these cars usually last longer than 100,000kms...
I also recommend the Haynes manual for Your car..
they don't use special tools like the Bentley manual..
You can't really have too many manuals as they all cover something
better than the next one...
amazon.com is the best place to buy manuals...
You can also buy used books thru them....
a fraction of the cost of manuals in Australia...
Best of luck with Your new replacement gearbox...
Lee
http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug
Quote from: Rhodrich on 14 January 2008, 13:29
Quote from: volkenstein on 14 January 2008, 13:03
Rhodrich,
A couple of things..
How did you adjust the servo pushrod and by how much? Are we talking clutch freeplay adjustment here?
How do you know the clutch arm is moving? Are you looking at it while someone else tries while it is up on stands or some such?
Lee has had a loose clutch arm pinch bolt. You might want to check it's buttoned up to spec or hasn't fatigue failed.
I don't think it would be a gear fork as you wouldn't be able to get a positive shift even with the engine off. Ditto for the T-O bearing..it's huge and if there was a problem you'd hear it! A broken clutch arm fork? Possible..although that seems remote. I know of no-one who has done that on a semi-auto. Mike? Lee? with your years of semi-auto experiences, ever hear of one or both the forks snapping off the shaft?
Last thing I can ask is..what happened the last time it shifted? Parked the car and walked away and next thing no shifting?
HTH
Volkenstein
I've adjusted up the servo pushrod such that there is 4mm of thread in view when the release arm is pushed back towards the bell housing (vacuum pipe off). The pushrod seems to be as short as it can be (as I want to be sure that the clutch is being depressed)
I know the clutch arm is moving as I've started the engine with the car jacked up, and have observed that the arm is fully pulled into the servo when the car is in neutral. I've also run a temporary ground wire to terminal 31 on the control valve, and can pull the arm in and out when that temporary wire is grounded. From using a test light, I can see that terminal 31 on the CV is getting the right inputs from the gear stick. I've even run the test wire to permanently ground terminal 31 (so the clutch is depressed), and tried shifting then, but it still won't go into gear, even though I can see with my own eyes that the clutch release arm is pulled fully into the clutch servo.
It was running and shifting fine, until about 1/2 a mile from home, it stopped shifting smoothly. Managed to get it into gear by matching engine speeds (using the syncromesh on the gearbox, as you would shift without using a clutch on a manual), to bring it home, but as soon as it stopped, it wouldn't go into any gear, suggesting that the clutch is not disengaging.
I would imagine if the clutch pinch bolt had come loose, there wouldn't be any resistance on the clutch release arm when I pulled it back into the servo (vacuum hose off), when there is a great deal of resistance, suggesting that the clutch is being depressed. I've tried feeling where the pinch bolt is, and I can't feel any movement there, but I'll try and have a look using a shaving mirror.
I've had clutch release forks snap on a manual bug before, and there was no resistance on the clutch pedal - it just fell to the floor, so I don't think it's that either.
I just can't think what it might be otherwise, unless the clutch plate has somehow glued itself to the torque convertor, or something's gone bad in the transmission itself. Very, very odd indeed.
I have been offered another scrap '68 AS with a good transmission, so I might swap that in. It's 200 miles away though, so I'm currently trying to see if I can get it transported.
In the meantime, if anyone can think of anything I may have missed, please let me know.
Many thanks for your help everyone.
I've adjusted up the servo pushrod such that there is 4mm of thread in view when the release arm is pushed back towards the bell housing (vacuum pipe off). The pushrod seems to be as short as it can be (as I want to be sure that the clutch is being depressed)
in the bentlys it says to pull to rod out and adj. you said you pushed it in ?. after going thru everything mentioned i found the adj rod at the canister to be off. also i pulled out the rod and plugged the hole while making the adjustment and the rod slipped back in, i think the inner seal is bad because its not holding air
Hi
check out the posts from last year about this subjuct as I answered it many times. Chances are if this has just happened.. its a vacuum hose. Unless ALL the vacuum hoses have been replaced by new hoses of good quality then the hoses are usually the problem. Once they have been replaced its easy to find out what is causing any problem as a leaking hose can cause many many different problems, and without renewing the hoses, You will just be changing/adjusting everything else
which will be a headache when You replace the hoses.
The original cotton covered vacuum hose is available in the USA at Mercedes Benz dealerships. The maker is Belmetrico [from memory].
I used an orange-red colored 12.7mm air pressure hose used on truck trailers "POWAFLEX MULTI-PURPOSE 12.7MM ID W.P. 300 PSI" made in USA its not expensive here in Australia. I also bought some [same brand] which was 12.3mm ID . these hoses are well made with a black center piece bonded to the outer red-orange piece. Good quality transmission oil hose may be used, but how long it lasts until the center section is sucked in??? I have seen photos of engine bays with garden hose being used..!!
Now good quality garden hose may last a long time ?? due to it going very very hard with the heat from the engine but I wouldn't recommend using it...
once all the vacuum hoses are renewed , its much much easier to find any problems that may arise,
Lee in Australia
Hi Again
if your hoses are all new.. and no vacuum leaks.
It normally means that the clutch isn't being activated by the control valve [by vacuum from the vacuum tank] so, it may be that the control valve isn't getting any voltage from the gear shifter.. [which actually grounds out the control valve solenoid - neg] as there is power going to the control valve all the time the ignition is switched on..[+ pos]
the [ground- neg] wire from the gear shifter may have broken just below the gear shifter, as the wire moves each time you change gears
[the wire comes out of the boot on the LHS and runs along the floor to under the rear seat] also check that both wires are plugged onto the control valve solenoid..
cheers from Australia
Lee