Well the engine has now been removed from the Ghia, thanks to the help of mr & mrs Phil (aka automaticsamba/auto) those guys are amazing. Ive removed the bell housing to investigate the slipping clutch, the reson for the engine removal was because my car was slow to take off and the torque convertor was the prime suspect but that looks ok and the TC seal hasnt been leaking. When the bell housing was removed the inside of the transmission casing was covered in oil :( it looks like it has been for some time, so Im guessing that it has contaminated the clutch, hence the clutch slipping and slow take off.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture028.jpg)
Question is how do I replace the seal that I assume is on the shaft sticking out, is this tricky to do whats the seal called and where do I get one from?
Help and advice appreciated thanks
Airhead
Hi, Unless I am completely confused(happens sometimes) the picture you have is of the gearbox side of the trans. The seal you see keeps the oil in the gearbox, there is a seal in the bell housing that seals ATF from the clutch side. If you have ATF in the gearbox then the seal I see may be the culprit, but I don't think so right now. The seal you would want is in the bell housing and is called the turbine shaft seal. Someone else on the forum might know where you could get one. Good luck with it!
Yeah I think there's the main drive shaft seal and the turbine shaft seal ???
Airhead
Airhead,
Well, the debbil has sent the beast to you with wroth :'( .
Those two are the worst ones to blow as they are achingly NLA. For the trans input shaft one, I'd try www.volksbahn.com.au or www.stokerssiding.com.au. Hell, try them for the other one too. Crasher had to machine/make a sleeve to go in the Bellhousing bore to fit a SIMRIT BABSL seal which is the utter closest "type" he found. I bought a "normal" fitment one and the lip (I.D) isn't in the same position as a genuine VW one.
Guess what? He's in the UK!
I can root around the shed to find my old ones to grab some numbers from (or I can try ETKA) them if you want. Steve (Crasher) went "above and beyond" to reco his box.
Try a search as well. Someone (I can't recall) got one of those and posted up about it.
Regards
Sean
:'( :'( Oh dear, Sean could you get me the part numbers for the seals please I'd really appreciate that, is the difficulty in just getting hold of the seals or in the fitting of them as well how difficult is that? Do you have any contact details for the guy (Steve) in the UK? The other alternative I can see is that Ive been offered a low mileage tranny (35k miles) so would it be easiest to just swap it out?Any idea what to search for in the forum?
Thanks for your help
Airhead
Airhead,
It was Greenghia who scored one from stokers! www.stokersvwparts.com.au is the correct website. Green said they only had one left after he snaffled that one.
www.longenterprises.com list a 001 301 085A seal which I *think* is the mainshaft seal.
Mine has 001 311 113 which came from Volksbahn.
Discussion No 1 : http://www.vwar.org/forum/index.php?topic=143.0
Now that carrier plate seal. SIMRIT make one that is good, but requires a 1mm larger OD sleeve to be fitted to the carrier plate shaft so the seal rides OK. The OD and width are good as well as the lip position.
Discussion No 1 : http://vwar.org/old_forum/index.php?topic=434
Hang on a tick and I'll see if I can find his e-mail. Found it. You have PM. You can also try and PM Crasher.
FWIW, the spend on the second trans may be less than the total of seals, bearing, postage and fabrication. Both of them are difficult little &^%$@#@'s. Mainshaft one has the potential to reduce you to "drooling simpleton" level :P
The carrier plate one I've done, so can pass on some tips. I've seen/heard horror stories about the MS one if at first it doesn't go to plan.
HTH
Volkenstein
Hi Sean
How would I know which seal has gone? could it be that the contamination is coming from the TC side not the transmission side? It does have a red colour to it?
Airhead
Airhead,
Wipe, rub & smell. It looks like the Bellhousing to me. I'd even go so far as to suggest given the shape of the mainshaft seal and that it is double lipped with a garter and is only to stop "flung" oil that it is the least suspect. OTOH, you've got an unsealed bearing behind the support tube, and oil is pressurised against the bellhousing seal. Also looks like a little to much "rust wash-off". Can you see red stains through the slots in the carrier plate on the bellhousing? That would be another giveaway.
HTH
Sean
Looks like ATF fluid to me because of the red color. What color was the oil that came out of the gearbox when you removed the pan? If that oil is red too then it may be as simple as the two o-rings that go between the gearbox and bellhousing. Absolutely do not mess with either seal until you know which one is bad. The seal on the mainshaft visually looks good and yes it is a nightmare to remove without galling the housing it seals against. It is also a huge pita to install because of it's location. Do you have red oil on the back of the carrier plate(the plate the clutch is bolted to)? Let us know a little more and we can probably narrow it down.
Ok ive removed the clutch and it looks new apart from being contaminated, Im convinced that is ATF fluid that is leaking from the TC end, Ive undone the 8 6mm socket heads, question is how do I get to the O ring seal, is there a procedure for this?
Airhead
Ive removed the clutch carrier plate some more pictures below, There is a seal in there whats everyone thoughts on this Im thinking if it is ATF thats leaking onto the clutch then this seal looks relatively easy to fix but if its the main drive shaft seal ??? ??? It certainly looks like a reddy brown colour:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/IMG_0603.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/IMG_0604.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/IMG_0605.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/IMG_0606.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/IMG_0607.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/IMG_0608.jpg)
Airhead
Hey Airhead, Just to be sure, the oil that came out from the gearbox when you removed the pan was not red was it? Second, Check right next to the drive plate hub and you will see a shiny spot on that boss where the seal rides. Does it look smooth with no nicks? (picture maybe?) Third the seal. You should be able to run your finger around the inside of the seal without any catches or tears. Get a light and look really close all the way around. If the seal looks good, don't try to remove it yet. It should have a pretty sharp ridge to seal on the drive plate. If there is a flat spot instead of a ridge that's bad. Now the drive plate and it's fit into the bearings in the bell housing, was it good and snug without any play when you wobbled it side to side. If the bearings go bad it can make a good seal leak. Oh yeah I can see by the pic that the seal is a 001 301 137a and that is the correct turbine shaft seal. Let us know what you find.
Hi Greenghia
The transmission oil did seem rather thin from what I ve heard transmission oil is usually quite thick, the drive plate did seem to be a snug fit it was hard to drive it out with a rubber mallet, will check on other things in morning, you mention an O rings n a previous reply where do they go from the Bentley manual I can only see the turbine shaft seal on the schematic diagram, thanks
Airhead
Airhead,
In the top picture, the two bottom studs have O-rings and I can see them. Again, that seal in the top pic is the one that is NLA and difficult to find a correctly offset replacement seal. At least the bearing is a garden variety, but needs to have a C3 rating (close tolerance). Since you've disassembled it this far, run a small oil stone around the circlip groove that you can see in pic No 2 to remove the ridges.
Since it is out, how does the Throwout bearing feel when you rotate it?
Did you clean the carrier plate side of the bellhousing before you took the pics?
The clutch disc surface on the carrier plate is indeed filthy. A can of brake cleaner should remove the scunge. I'd rate your actual clutch disc suspect as well. How thick is it?
Regards
Sean
Ok the seal 'feels' ok I havent cleaned anything up its just as it was disassembled, there is a shiny ring on the clutch carrier plate shaft but its not a ridge
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture030-1.jpg)
Is there an O ring that goes round the one way clutch support
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture032-1.jpg)
Seal appears to be ok and bearing runs smooth
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture031-1.jpg)
I really dont know what to do with this now problem is I cant get the seals, even if I could get the turbine shaft seal and replaced that I could put it all
back together and install it only to find it was the main drive shaft seal - nightmare!
Airhead
Hi Airhead, Well the plot certainly thickens as they say. I know it is a lot of trouble but could you get any better pictures of the seal. Additionally a picture of the front and back of the one way clutch support. Are you working outside? There looks like a lot of dirt on the socket head screw in the picture showing the O-ring. Was there a gasket between the bellhousing and the clutch support and how tight were the socket screws? It may have been leaking there by the look of the socket screws. The boss on the carrier plate looked a little messed up to me, could you wipe it off and let us take another look at it? A very small scar/rough place where the seal rides will surely cause a leak. We may not have been on the same page about the seal, the seal should have a fairly sharp ridge, the boss should be perfectly smooth. Let us know what happens. It is fixable.
Ok Ive taken some more pictures
Main drive shaft seal
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture045-4.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture046-2.jpg)
Gasket
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture036-1.jpg)
Turbine shaft seal
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture038-1.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture039-2.jpg)
One way clutch support
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture042-2.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture043-1.jpg)
There is some existing damage to the edge of the clutch support but it doesnt breach the seal
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture040-1.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture041-1.jpg)
I really dont know what to do Im concerned that I cant get the seals, Im being pulled over to the darkside
- manual conversion (only kidding ;D Im not beaten yet) its really frustrating.
Airhead
Airhead,
So what is the word with the suppliers? Have they got any?
Steve has paper gaskets (he had a batch made) IIRC. You could re-use the one you've got, it looks OK.
That bearing does look a little shitty. Try and get an FAG (NOT Portuguese FAG!!!) or RHP replacement (C3 spec!) if you desire.
I'm hornswoggled that your TC support tube has an Oring on it :o . I have two and they haven't got the groove! With that bruising, get a small millsaw file and gently smooth the dings.
I honestly believe you are at the stage of seriously weighing up the cost of a second hand trans (and condition = ?) versus ploughing blood, sweat, tears and folding green into the one you have.
Regards
Sean
Hi again, I was looking at the pics and it looks like someone has been in there monkeying around. Where the heck did all that debris come from, it looks like metal. It seems to be on the main bearing and is in all the housings. It is possible that they are pieces of the torque converter. I would spin the torque converter around and then pour the oil out of the into something so that I could check for any metal at all. The good news is that the seals and all may still be perfectly good. You just keep getting pieces of metal in the way causing leaks. If you don't find any metal in the oil then I agree with Sean that a replacement autostick trans may be the easiest way to go from here. They are not that hard to find and it would keep you from being drawn over to the dark side!!! If those are bits of metal you must find out where they are coming from or another failure is likely. (could be part of the pump also).
Hi Folks
the metal certainly looks like steel...
can a torque converter spit out steel bits.??
wouldn't the brass bushes wear out first???
after seeing those pics, I would certainly opt out for the used low mileage A/T..
I missed out on getting a seal from stokers...
someone else beat me to it...
although it would have been for a spare...
the seal number You quoted Sean from Volksbahn...
is it the same dimentions??? as the original...
I usually get on around midnight local, but My ISP [My Son] downloads or does something
starting at midnight to 1.30am.....lol.. which means i can't access any websites...
After telling Him of my problems...
and switching to Firefox ..
I've had no problems at all...
LEE
Ive examined my torque convertor today and looked at the splines in the centre the first 10mm look to be totally sheared off
Im guessing that this is where the metal is coming from, how could this happen? Ive drawn a blank on the low mileage AS replacement tranny the
seller suddenly wants to double his price >:( so Im struggling to find a replacement despite placing a wanted ad on Vzi here in the UK so unsure what to do next ???
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm72/Airkewld_2008/Picture051-2.jpg)
Airhead
Airhead,
I've seen it happen before on a V8 when the trans had been sitting for ages and after bolting it up it stripped out the splines the first time it started.
Nasty, nasty stuff.
Do you reckon you still have a few mm of spline engagement?
Phil at one stage had some GB's he was picking and choosing from. Do you know if he has any still around?
You may be looking to source a TC from the USA if you exhaust your UK options.
HTH
Sean
Airhead:
Don't know the complete history here but if I were to guess I'd say that the TC was improperly seated (it is easy to do). It is ispossible to then bolt up the engine/flexplate and start it up. With the inner turbine inproperly seated on its spline and as a result forced/locked against the opposite side of the TC the only result is the stripped splines. That's my guess. For sure, you need a new TC. Don't think it is repairable.
Tom