Another Autostick problem

[volkenstein]

dfrommi,
           I don't like the sound of that. Tell me whether you've removed the clutch arm from the gearbox or not.

So..it is a PULL clutch, not a PUSH (like most cars). So you're ability to move the clutch arm until it butts up against the bellhousing is OK.

What is not OK is that you can move it 6 inches without feeling any resistance at all. From memory this takes it way past the servo-to-trans connection point. If you haven't removed the clutch arm, then I suspect the Throwout Bearing Fork has lost contact with the arms on the T-O bearing....or the very worst is that the arms on the fork or T-OB are broken.

The T-O bearing has a flange which resides inside of the clutch cover's fingers and unless you heard massive "sproing!!!" sounds at some stage I don't think you've pulled it out.

Unfortunately..out with the engine & then the trans (well, you can do the trans in situ if you absolutely must...) to delve in there and sort it out.

Since this is a huge job, first check that your clutch arm pinch bolt isn't loose and second that when you stop when moving the arm away from the bellhousing, it's a really hard mechanical stop you can't go past (no hammer action!!!!) rather than finding the clutch cover/T-O bearing take up point.....

Let us know and we can go from there....


Regards
Volkenstein

[dfrommi]

okay so i got the engine out today. wasn't very hard at all! but i do suspect that its going to be much harder putting it back in  .  me talking about the 6 inches  may have been exaggerated a little bit but it does still seem to have a bit too much play. to show you what im talking about i took a movie for you with my camera. yay digital cameras! MOVIE==>http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/danfrommi/karmann%20ghia/?action=view&current=clutcharm.flv
  and heres a picture of the pin thingy not a very good one but ill get a better one once the trans is out. http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/danfrommi/karmann%20ghia/?action=view&current=IMAG0024.jpg

[volkenstein]

Dfrommi,
          I'll have a sticky beak once I'm home and get back to you later.

Don't remove the torque converter!! Strap it in place right now, unless you want the thrill of shelling out some bucks for a new TC seal.


Regards
Volkenstein

[dfrommi]

took the trans out today and it looks like the arm portion at the gear box was loose! i tried to tighten it up a bit and the bolt broke right off.... .but with little muscle the arm came right off from the clutch release shaft. so i took a movie of what the clutch shaft was doing tell me if this looks normal? http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/danfrommi/karmann%20ghia/?action=view&current=IMAG0031.flv
oh btw i got a little better picture of the pin. someone freaking welded it on! why the heck would someone do such a thing =( http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/danfrommi/karmann%20ghia/?action=view&current=IMAG0030.jpg .
to me that play with the clutch release looks pretty good. hopfully just fixing this bolt that broke and replacing it will do the trick  wishful thinking?

[volkenstein]

Dfrommi,
            Sorry about no reply, my ISP was dead all night. You've got the trans out now so I'll write a spiel in some free time today after I look at the new piccies/vid.

Welded??  That's just marvy...may the lice of 1000 camels be upon the PO!


Volkenstein

[volkenstein]

dfrommi,
           OK, your trans is out. I was going to say last night that your clutch action looked normal because you changed position to get leverage to push further. That told me it appears you hit the take up point and pushed through. Maybe a little too far since you went back to the bracket. You may have over-centred your clutch pressure plate.

The movement in the second video looks ok as well.

Now...how far do you want to go??

Let's deal with the clutch arm first. I can't see whether the pin is brazed or arc/mig'd on. If it's brazed together, then unbraze it. If it's been arc/mig'd I would remove the weld by either sawing the weld with a fine blade mini hacksaw (after taking off the adjuster nut) or cut it with a Dremel cut-off wheel. The other way is to drill the pin out with a suitable metric drill bit from one end. First test whether the pin is case hardened or not as you may have to grind through a bit before you drill.
Similarly, you have to have that pinch bolt problem corrected. The gearbox shaft (if you clean it up) has a very fine spline around it and the clutch arm is fixed by this and the clamping action of the pinch bolt.

I hope you scribed a line across the top of the clutch arm and gearbox shaft? If you didn't, don't worry too much as it'll be easier to adjust everything with the gearbox out.

Now the biggie...the trans. If you want to make 100% sure everything is OK you'll have to pop the bellhousing off. You'll lose all your transaxle oil as two nuts are up inside the box ahead of the R & P. That means you'll lose your trans pan gasket if you aren't careful as they are cork type. I made my own out of nitrile rubber sheet and a wad punch simply because no-one had them in stock.
Once all that is done and the remaining exposed nuts are off the bellhousing can be easily (no removing the torque converter!!!) removed and you can examine the clutch components at leisure.

                                     If you don't want to delve deep into the innards, fix up your clutch arm and perform this test:
Rotate the gearbox shaft clockwise *with fingers only* until it "stops" . Put the clutch arm on so it is away from the bellhousing a little and tighten the pinch bolt. Now attempt to pull back (away from the bellhousing!) the arm 1 1/2 inches, then let go. If it resists but moves initially and then snaps back toward the bellhousing when you let go with no hideous sounds, I'd call that good enough to install and hope for the best.

Post up when you've got your external problems sorted, and we can go forward with other nasty adjustments before you sling your gearbox in.


HTH
Volkenstein

[dfrommi]

quick question about the control valve to servo. should there always be some kind of suction coming from the control valve to the servo? or only suction when its being shifted into gear? because when i was trying to fix the problem with everything in the car there was always a suction to the servo. just when you switched gears the suction was greater. i ask this because i really don't know how the arm would go back out of the servo besides the rubber inside of it. and to me it would seem even the suction with out being put into gear was too great for the rubber to push the arm back out. PS when i do that test should i have the servo on or off?         :edit: took off the bell housing etc and inspected the clutch assembly. never rebuilding an stick shift before but have done a th350 for my trans am this is pretty foreign to me. but not the plate its self. took some pictures of the inners of the clutch stuff. http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/danfrommi/karmann%20ghia/?action=view&current=IMAG0033.jpg clutch plate

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/danfrommi/karmann%20ghia/?action=view&current=IMAG0032.jpg
spring plate

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/danfrommi/karmann%20ghia/?action=view&current=IMAG0038.flv
and a movie of the play with the release bearing

this play with the release bearing(i think thats the name of it) is the only movement i can get with the clutch arm now. unless i put a BUTT load of pressure on it to bring it towards were the servo would be. before the clicking and extra movement i was getting was from the arm jumping teeth on the shaft its self. thanks so much for the help so far we will get this done! let me know how all these parts look

[volkenstein]

dfrommi,
           Re vacuum always present from CV to servo, no. That would indicate either the solenoid is being fired by a ground/short in your electrics, or your something is stuck open in the CV. My money on the first, start at the gearstick and work backward. An easy way to tell is to do what you were doing when you noticed, and pull the power feed wire (coming from coil) off the solenoid. If the vacuum drops to nothing...ground/short problem. 

Soooo....wish my spare clutch setup looked like yours!!   Mate, everything (cover, plate, TOB etc) looks sweet, but is the clutch lining truly green??? They are brown normally...
Seriously, by the look of it you have had a new clutch setup fitted at some stage. How thick is the plate? They wear extremely slowly.
Look both sides and see how much lining is above the rivets. From your pics - looks like plenty.

Mike and I have compared thickness of some second hand ones we have and they are around the 7.5mm mark (from memory) with plenty of  life left and both of ours have 100,000 miles + on them.

I would button it back up after cleaning the crap off the housing etc and make sure the plate faces the correct way.
The installer may have screwed this up. The clutch cover small bolts are 11 ft/lbs torque.
Fit it back up *ensuring* both arms of the TOB engage in the clutch fork properly. A good idea to use the clutch fork to pull the bellousing back onto the gearbox. That way you know it's correct.

How is the clutch arm coming along?


Volkenstein

[dfrommi]

hahhaa no its not green. the carport I'm working underneath is made of some green sheet type stuff and gives everything a green glow when its really sunny out.

[volkenstein]

dfrommi,
          Since you are ripping into it, a few other things worth mentioning for re-assembly and FYI.

EDIT : OK, trick of the light....kewl

Got some High Temp grease handy? A little mo2 grease as well? Put a small smear of High Temp in the pilot bearing in the carrier plate.
On your gearbox, there's a big shoulder which surrounds the splined input shaft. Smear a little mo2 (molybdenum disulphide grease) grease on that shoulder. Enough to colour it slightly, don't slather it like butter on bread!

Make sure your plate rides on the G'box input shaft splines smoothly. the tiniest, tiniest smear of HTB on the splines if you must.

A little FYI. The TOB is meant to be sloppy and rattle around inside the clutch cover. That means it's got clearance between itself and the clutch plate. It is stabilised in action because it fits onto that shoulder I mentioned above. Most of the side-side play disappears once it's on, leaving forward-back play which is what you want.....

Also...if you need a section of the Bentley dealing with Autosticks, a kind member of the old board scanned it and bunged it into a file. It's a whopper - 6 odd Megabyte...but I really think you should have it. Want a copy? I can choke your Inbox with it .


HTH
Volkenstein

[dfrommi]

ha yeah had some high temp grease and already did what ya asked and even put a little into the needle bearings in the TOB to make it run nice and smooth. it was a bit tricky getting the shaft to line up though. that we be great if you could send that bently section my way

[Jack-the-Bug]

Just to but in 
This thread is superb and is helping me sort out our bug with a similar problem
Thanks guys 

Anychance of the bentleyfile being emailed to me at davidhiggs@hotmail.com
let me know if there is a cost involved.
Thanks again

Hopefully our 68 bug will be back on the road soon now.

[dfrommi]

okay i got the clutch arm on there like you said. heres a movie of what it does now. http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/danfrommi/karmann%20ghia/?action=view&current=IMAG0043.flv
the arm is REALLY hard to move towards the servo. are you sure the suction would be great enough to move the arm this much? i mean it almost takes me 2 hands to move it 1 1/2 inch and I'm a pretty big guy. how would i go about testing the electrical with the engine and trans out?

[Jack-the-Bug]

Thanks for the email 
Brilliant stuff.
You guys are brilliant

[dfrommi]

anytime