'68 Semi Auto

FlamingChris · 26 January 2009, 20:25

Upon closer inspection it appeared as though the 'guide tube'(?) for the driven gear in the pump was fouling in the front of the cam. You can see where it's been rubbing on the cam in this photo:

So I measured it all up and it was too long by about 2mm, so a quick blast with the file and all my clearance issues were sorted!

Then i spent ages trying to fit the seals in the pump as they just didn't want to go in the recess, so much so that i've got blisters on my thumbs from trying to squeeze them in, but it was all worth it to achieve this:

The engine's still a bit hard to turn over but i checked that it was down to the new seals in the pump, so hopefully it'll free off a bit when they're worn in.

volkenstein · 27 January 2009, 00:49

Chris,
Regarding the reply I wrote on oil pumps...just make sure the tang isn't bottoming on the cam too. I can see a bit better where the pump case was hitting the cam but I can't be sure the tang isn't either. You can check it by cleaning the slot and using some pasticine (not plasti-guage) in it and check how far the tang is going into that slot.

Regards
Sean

FlamingChris · 27 January 2009, 01:44

Good idea, wish i'd thought of that sooner! I'll pull the pump (again!) tomorrow and try to find some blu-tak as i'd have no idea where to get pasticine around here (live right out in the middle of nowhere). I'll report back!

You said in the thread about oil pump differences I have a 1600 TP pump and a 3 rivet flat cam and that you weren't suprised i was having difficulties, what pump should i be fitting to the car then? I thought (probably my first mistake) that i had a late engine and a late pump, or are there more differences that are causing me issues?

Bookwus · 27 January 2009, 03:09

Hiya Chris,

The primary determining factor in oil pump compatibility is the camshaft. Is it dished? Or is it flat?

A secondary determining factor is the size of the oil passges in the your case. You want to be sure to match up oil pump and case so that both have the same size oil passages.

Since twinport engines commonly ran dished cams along with 10mm oil passages the inner half of the oil pump would be a 109B. It has the 10mm oil passages and the tang to engage the dished cam drive slot.

What oil pump should you be running? That will depend entirely on the cam (in your case a flat cam) and the size of your oil passages (have you taken a look at them?)

volkenstein · 27 January 2009, 03:17

Chris,
I would make sure your oil holes in the pump and the case line up somewhat. Measure where the oil holes start (from the pump flange) and then in the case where the mounting face is back to the oil holes.

I could see oiling difficulties is they don't line up. Particularly if the pump body overlaps the holes in the case by too much on the feed side on a small gallery engine.

What is your engine number? It's stamped below the generator/alternator stand...It is hard to judge what has happened in your engine's life without it..

Did you check your pump gears to flange depth?
Max .004 inch.
Most bods zero it by out running the pump body in a figure 8 on wet 'n' dry (600 or 800 grade). The thin gasket then provides sufficient clearance. I'm hesitant about recommending tearing the pump apart again as you may be up for a thin gasket if it tears....

Blu-Tac is OK, use a little and be careful to oil the pump tang a little as you wouldn't want it drop down into the case. Probably a lot stickier than kiddies plasticine

.

HTH
Sean

PS..took too long typing again

. Mike and I are more or less on the same page re your case/cam/pump combo.

68autobug · 27 January 2009, 04:00

Well, I fiddle about and change things so I'm glad My pumps were the same lol...
or i would have had problems too...
it pays to have spare gaskets especially if the nearest shop is 300 kms away... lol

just when you think everything has been explored in an autostick...
something like this happens....

so, You learn something every day....

the pump seals.... did you push them in by hand???

also, has anyone ever taken the pressure valve out of a pump??

LEE

FlamingChris · 27 January 2009, 04:46

I seem to remember looking at the holes earlier and noticing that they were the same size as the one's in the case so i don't think that's going to be an issue, or at least i hope not! My engine code is D1421769, which was pulled out of a '74 1303 (so i've been told).
I didn't check your pump gears to flange depth, that's another thing on the list tomorrow. I think i'll be alright for gaskets for now, i've got some left in a gasket kit and i haven't tightened anything up just yet, it's simply pushed into place.
Lee, i attempted to push those seals in by hand and i soon realised they weren't having any of it, i managed to press them in with the use of a washer and some mole grips, is there an easier way to do this for future reference cos it took me ages!!

volkenstein · 27 January 2009, 05:50

Chris,
You're now in possession of "A bastard son of 100 maniacs". The case started life as a 1300 SP from the mid 60's. Hence the flat cam etc. If your pump holes line up OK, clearance OK, no tang interference.....run it.

Regards
Sean

68autobug · 27 January 2009, 07:43

Quote from: FlamingChris on 27 January 2009, 04:46
Lee, i attempted to push those seals in by hand and i soon realised they weren't having any of it, i managed to press them in with the use of a washer and some mole grips, is there an easier way to do this for future reference cos it took me ages!!

I think I would have knocked the seals in with a piece of wood... [large flat piece] and a mallet.
so I couldn't push them thru the hole..
its funny how little things like this , You forget to write down etc...
I would knock in front axle hub seals the same way... [I have done this]

Sean, how would You press those seals in?? [without using a press i mean...lol]

Lee

volkenstein · 27 January 2009, 12:30

Lee,
Same as you. Flat piece of something. Try and start the seal, then finish off by tapping on a flat piece of something (wood, aluminium etc..just not steel!).

Regards
Sean

FlamingChris · 27 January 2009, 13:04

I'm with you now. Where did you find the info about that engine?

68autobug · 27 January 2009, 13:14

Quote from: FlamingChris on 27 January 2009, 13:04
I'm with you now. Where did you find the info about that engine?

My list shows its a 1978 1200 engine....

Engine numbers: D1-415-741 to D1-431-112 1200 engine
1st August 1977 to 31st July 1978

so its still a mystery... I would think that all 1200 engines were sold in Europe..
as the last beetle made in Emden was a 1200 model...
they were popular in Germany and the UK etc where Fuel was Expensive...

Where are you located chris??

LEE

FlamingChris · 27 January 2009, 13:41

In Suffolk in the U.K.

68autobug · 27 January 2009, 15:11

Well thats why You have a 1200 engine case...
from 1978... there weren't any 1200s in Australia since late 60s..
the Australian Country Buggy had 1200 or 1300 engines.
before that beetles had 1200s up to around 1966

Sean must have missed a number in Your engine number..

cheers

LEE

FlamingChris · 27 January 2009, 16:29

Right, i pulled the pump and took some measurements:

The tang on my pump is 7.6mm deep
The depth of the slot in the cam is 8.4mm deep
With the gear in the case the tang pokes out 6.5mm

Now i know that the guide (or whatever it's called) no longer catches on the cam, so as the tang can only poke out 6.5mm and the slot in the cam is 8.4 deep then it can't be catching anywhere now. Although just to make sure of this i did the test with some blu-tak and it confirmed i was right.

I made sure the oil gallery holes lined up, i did try to get a photo but my camera was too big to get the angle, and that they were the same size (i also double checked on the manual pump i pulled out). I'm quite happy everything lines up now and the engine now turns over quite freely. I'll just see whether it leaks/grinds to a halt upon start up (whenever that is, i've still got to put back together the rest of the car yet!).