engine oil in atf

[KevM]

Hi,

my recently rebuilded semi has just blown the engine due to there being no oil in it BUT it was filled with oil.

2 days prior to this I checked the ATf level and it was spot on.

Today I checked the ATF level as part of my diagnostics and it is very high again so I must assume that my engine oil is getting into the ATF fluid flow and is, amongst the engine rebuild, the first thing to fix but why or how is this happening, what have I done wrong. :?:

Thanks for your help,

rgds

Kev

[bookwus]

Hiya Kev,

Sorry to hear about the engine!

First, the issue of engine oil getting into the ATF.  It is possible (I guess) but it should be easy to tell if that is happening.  ATF is a bright red in color.  Your engine oil will be brownish (depending on how old and dirty it is) so look for visible signs of engine oil contamination in the ATF.  You need to drain some ATF out to do this, but if you are correct and there is engine oil in the ATF you'll have to drain it all out anyway.
So, let's say you do find engine oil in the ATF.  How did it get that way................ I would think that the only way engine oil could get into the ATF would be through the oil pump.  If the pump is pumping engine oil into the ATF system and not through the engine...........well, that would result in your present situation.
So.........you'll need to pull your oil pump and give it a good closeup looksee.

Mike

1970 AS Bug

[KevM]

Hi,

spent a fair part of yesterday stripping down my AS engine to get the pump off which I finally achieved (after exhaust, tinware and pulley wheel .. lot of seating and swearing  :evil:

Anyway things are now a bit mysterious and I need some advice if anyone can help.

My original engine was a stock manual unit to which i bought and added the bits to converted to a semi. I bought Semi parts from all over the place and although I added most myself for one reason or another I had the oil pump added by a third party company.

This all seemed to work ok until it's first real drive where I had the engine oil in ATF problem.

Having dismantled it and taken the pump off and examined the diagrams for its composition I think I have been misled by the firm I used a fair while ago who put the pump on.

I assumed they had put my pump on the car as it has an inlet and outlet hose on the pump cover which goes into the atf lines and I don't recall anything similar in that area on the manual VW beetle.

But when I took the cover plate with the hoses off the next thing i found were the stock oil pump gears.  I expected a bit in between for the ATF.

i.e for a semi oil/atf pump I thought there would be aother set of gears and bits before the main oil pump ones.

I have got no comeback on this as the firm have since gone bust (no surprise) but I need to know,  :?: would I be right in thinking that the company simply put the oil pump cover on the engine oil pump i.e in place of the old cover plate without the other bits or is this simply it, am I wrong to expect to see anything else.

I have never seen one nor had this car fully built so i have absolutely no comparison whatsoever, I think it is missing bits but couldn't be 100% sure.

I suspect it is missing something and this is the root of my problem, the engine oil is probably coming straight out of the oil pump gears into my ATF fluid line hence my problems.

Could anyone put me straight on this.

:?: Also was there any modification to the pulley or tinware to accomodate what I anticipate will be a bigger lump behind the pulley wheel, I am a bit worried when I get my pump next week it might not fit. I have about an inch to play with if I had left the pump cover with in and out ATF lines in place.

Thanks as always and best regards for the New Year.

Kev

[bookwus]

Hiya Kev,

"I suspect it is missing something and this is the root of my problem, the engine oil is probably coming straight out of the oil pump gears into my ATF fluid line hence my problems."

\You are absolutely correct in your assumption concerning the AS oil pump.  It does have two "sides" if you will.  The internal side pumps engine oil and the outside half of the pump (which, by the way, is separated from the internal side) pumps only ATF.  Indeed, it does sound as if an AS oil pump cover was slapped on a regular VW oil pump.

About your concerns over fitment.............It IS a tight fit.  But most of the pump sits snuggly behind the pully tin.  Some of it protrudes further out.  If you get down there and eyeball how everything fits together, you'll notice the that the bottom half of the pump has a section which is unencumbered.  The pump housing will protrude in that area.

Best of luck and keep us advised on your progress.

Mike

1970 AS Bug

[KevM]

will do, and thanks again Mike.

I've managed to source a complete set of semi auto parts from a Karman Ghia conversion to manual so next sat will be getting my pump and fitting it Sunday hopefully, wish I had drained the entire system before hand in a morning though so I could keep an eye on it, my bucket must have had a leak, no oil in the bucket but a lovely reddish brown - and wet - floor in my garage today!!

best wishes for the new year!

Kev

[KevM]

Hi,
got my new pump.. and it is identical to the old one so I guess I did have the right pump after all.

Which leaves me baffled, how could that much engine oil have gotten into my ATF line, the old pump, which I have off, appears on the outside to be ok so I am wondering if something else is wrong here. Maybe the gears aren't rotating freely or is there something else.

This is a car built up, not a car rebuilt so if anyone can give me the slightest idea as to other possible causes or maybe experience/assurance that the pump is definitely the culprit would be most welcome.

I hate the thought of rebuilding it all and then it needs to be stripped again, getting the pulley off was a pain.

rgds

[68AutoBug]

Did You replace the two oil seals inside the pump?
they seperate the two "pumps"..

Lee  68AutoBUG

[KevM]

Hi,

yes I did, also posted a tip/how to bit on the forum.

Put in a new engine, reassembled everything, just got to get rid of a bit of oil weeping out between the oil pump plates which will hopefully be just a gasket problem. At least its coming out and not into my ATF line,

rgds

Kev

[68AutoBug]

KevM
Best of  Luck.. Mate
was there two or 4 oil seals??

Lee  68Auobug

[KevM]

Hi,

there are 2 seals that sit back to back. For the hell of it I bought 4 but if I ever need to replace them again I will probably buy new ones as my 'spares' will probably be on the shelf and will have goe off by then.

In all honesty the hardest part of the job is getting the pulley wheel off so buy a pulley wheel extractor tool, it'll save you tonnes of work.

rgds

Kev

[68AutoBug]

Kevin,
I did Mine about 7 years ago... engine has done about 30 minutes work.
Someone on here told Me that every time the torque converter is moved, a new torque converter oil seal must be used.
I don't know whether to replace the seal that has done no work...
I do have a spare oil seal... and I think I bought 4 pump oil seals too...

Sorry to hear of Your engine failure....

regards
Lee

[KevM]

Hi Lee,

Torque converter seals are a bit of a funny one as there are loads of different views on this.

If the seal is old, regardless of how many miles it has done, you should replace it as they go off and don't work so well, this is what happened with my oil seals, they had dried up and gone off, quite brittle and hard, a regularly used engine will probably have better seals as they are constantly lubricated than one that has stood around for ages.

The reason I think people say replace the seal when you take the engine out are 2 fold. Removing the engine is a pain and not something you would do too often so while you are there you may as well do the seal too, it saves a job later.

Also it is possible to knock the seal when the engine comes out (or in for that matter), which will cause it to not be seated properly leading to leaks so people may think it has to be replaced because it is faulty.

I would suggest giving it a good once over when the engine is out, for the small cost and if you have a spare why not stick the new one in, it can't hurt.

rgds

Kev

[68AutoBug]

Hi Kev,
Well, I still haven't replaced the TC oil seal and I've had the engine in & out a few times.. again tomorrow by the look of it... it still isn't leaking..
I replaced the 4 TC bolts as the head of one of them wasn't good, with Hi tensile stainless steel allen headed bolts, and I found out today that they were hitting the back of the engine housing, as they were about 3-4mm longer than the originals.. I then put the originals back in with Loctite...
and My pump is also leaking ATF.. I'll have to get some new gaskets..
at least now everything looks like it has an end to it...  it looked endless there for a while.. I took My doghouse fan shroud off My engine today along with the Alternator & carburetor.. because I found a small right angle bracket that fits under the oil cooler some how.. My Son tells Me that I have to take the engine out to bolt it back where it belongs....
I can't see what it bolts to..  anyway, I'll explore it better tomorrow, and Maybe.. I can find where it goes...  and bolt it on without taking the engine out again...  I replaced My Torque converter last week with a used one, which had a bit of water in it, took 20 liters of ATF to flush it out...
Things are looking good again....

Lee Noonan - 68AutoBug - Australia -

[68AutoBug]

Well, I have taken My tinware & crankshaft pulley off.. and have received the gaskets I ordered. I ordered double so I have spares... Its leaking from just behind the oil pump main cover... so I'll replace those gaskets.

It looks like an engine will not run on ATF fluid... even with a bit of engine oil in it...
and if there was a leaking seal, the pressure from the ATF side of the pump would pump ATF into the sump.. I believe.. the pressure is higher from that side...

How is Yours going Kev, ??

Lee --