Ugh-
SO here's the whole story-
As you may have read in my other thread, I recently had to remove the clutch servo canister from my car due to no shifting into gear from neutral, idle surging etc. Figuring it was the canister diaphragm, I went about removing the canister- but when I knocked out the hinge pin between the clutch arm and the servo canister arm, guess what happened- that's right it fell RIGHT DOWN into the bell housing window!!! >:( Which of course means pulling the whole damn engine to retrieve it.
So I set about doing that yesterday-- got the pin out, but NOW when I was putting everything back together, when I went to reinstall the torque converter bolts, tightening them down to spec (18 ft/lbs) I snapped the head off one of them!! >:( ::) >:( :P :-\
So now I have the threaded part of that bolt stuck in the flex plate... is there any way I can drill that out and/or extract it while still in the flex plate, so I don't have to remove the engine again AND remove the flex plate? The other 3 TC bolts seem to be holding everything just fine BTW... but I don't want one loose side of the TC screwing anything up...
All I can think of is drilling a line across the top of the thread using a Dremel tool or similar to turn it into a flat headed screw suitable for a flat headed screwdriver.
Quote from: Dave on 04 April 2018, 16:34
All I can think of is drilling a line across the top of the thread using a Dremel tool or similar to turn it into a flat headed screw suitable for a flat headed screwdriver.
The problem with something like a Dremel is that whatever tool I use has to fit through the hole in the tab of the torque converter-- none of the remaining bolt is actually sticking through the tab any longer- it broke off beneath that tab. It's all JUST in the flex plate. So when I said I snapped the head off, I should have said I snapped off the head and a tiny part of the threaded "stem."
I think I'm almost going to have to use some sort of extractor bit... if I can get a drill up into that tight space. Something like this maybe?:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-Screw-Extractor-Set/999957791
(https://mobileimages.lowes.com/product/converted/099198/099198899770.jpg)
I just answered this on the other post.... but You need to use a drill as large as You can so there isn't much left of the screw. Then use an extractor the correct size, as I tried to extract a bolt once and I just drilled a small hole in the bolt and the screw extractor broke off... I bought titanium drills but they wouldn't touch the screw extractor... they are too hard... I have used High tensile hexagon headed allen screws and even 8.8 grade hexagon headed bolts. I think I had to grind a spanner or socket to undo them... so far I have never dropped a screw into the bell housing... I don't think driving with 3 screws in the flexplate is a good idea... be careful as the nuts on the flexplate can came off too... and the flexplate is balanced..
Lee in Australia
Thanks Lee-
I'll see what I can do about it when i get a chance.
Here's a look at what I'm up against...
(https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1764764.jpg)
Hi sb001,
it has been a long time since I was under My car , but it's good that You can actually see the broken screw. You will need a drill with a flexible shaft. You can get small dremel sized drills with a flexible extension. So, You need to drill out as much as the old screw as possible, so the extractor can just unscrew what is left.... mostly just the thread. I would look at replacing the 4 screws with high tensile allen headed screws which are much stronger... You will probably have to cut them to length and file the end so the thread goes into the nuts neatly...
cheers Lee in Australia
OMG what a job.
Are you going to execute with the engine attached or take the TC out?
Good luck!!
I'm going to try it as is first, with engine still installed... I just need a straight shot into that broken bolt to drill and then use the extractor tool... I think I can get it without having to remove everything but we'll see. I've watched a few youtube videos on peole using these extractor tools- doesn't look too tough as long as you don't break the extractor tip off in the screw--if I do that then I am royally screwed. I'll just try to go slow and take my time...
Well after mulling it over I changed my mind and decided to pull the engine today:
(https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1765869.jpg)
Will make it WAAYY easier to get that broken bolt out now:
(https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1765870.jpg)
and there are other related things I've needed to do for awhile now anyway like clean up the engine, replace the tarboard in the engine bay, etc... Plus while the car is out of commission it might motivate me to get some other jobs on the list done as well, like finally replace the headliner, install the new seat covers I have, replace the cracked dash pad, etc etc etc :P
Well, that is now much easier to fix the problem. Don't forget to replace the torque converter seal....
LEE
Hopefully the original bolts weren't too hard [too high tensile] as they will take some drilling... maybe a normal drill won't be able to drill it????
Lee
Where are you going to get a new bolt?
Are you all using the same kind of bolts as original applied or are replacements from DIY shop? (if so what specs to look for?)
These were aftermarket replacement TC bolts I got from somewhere-- don't even remember now. Probably made in China crap. They are definitely NOT the original German TC bolts-- the originals were sharpened to a much finer point on the 6 points around the hex head and had an extra grooved washer plate around the bottom of the head:
(http://www.bugcity.com/shop/files/large/001301095AG.jpg)
This is the kind I had:
(http://www.bugcity.com/shop/files/large/001301095AX.jpg)
The OEMs were probably much higher tensile strength as well, and the reason 18 ft/ lbs is fine for them but may be too much for the replacements I had.
Quote from: 68autobug on 09 April 2018, 09:50
Well, that is now much easier to fix the problem. Don't forget to replace the torque converter seal....
LEE
You know, I have only ever replaced my TC seal once, that was several years ago- and I don't seem to have a problem with it even after removing/ reinstalling my engine several times since. However, I did pick up a new TC seal at the VW show last fall for a song-- guess i might as well use it. :)
I just purchased torque converter bolts from evwparts.com. Have not received them yet to see what they look like. (4.95 each). Two of mine the bolt head stripped even with a 6 point impact socket. (Using a hand ratchet). Had to use a pneumatic hammer with a 2ft pointed tip and CAREFULLY get a bite on the side of the bolt head and got them turning. Then a socket to remove them the rest of the way. I would caution anyone attempting this, it takes a steady hand. one slip, and you could go right though the torque converter.
As I posted in another thread, someone had been into the clutch before. They could have used a cheap socket and or over torqued the bolts. 18 ftlbs is not much. A little hard to get your torque wrench up there!
You can see on one of the bolts where I was able to get a "bite" and start the bolt turning.
Also forgot to mention. In your case with the bolt head broken off, you might get a sharp pick and see if the bolt will turn. With the head missing and threads not stripped. Sometimes they will turn right out.
Wow, that bolt got pretty jacked up!
I hate to say it but I believe evwparts sells the aftermarket bolt like what I used--at least that's what the picture on their website shows. Apparently it cannot withstand the same torque as the original German ones, so if you use those I would go very slowly in incremental steps to try to get it to 18 ft/lbs, or set it a little lower. I was trying to go in steps with mine and was only at 15 ft/lbs when that head snapped off.
When I replaced my torque converter bolts I used Allen head bolts that were bought locally. However I can not remember exactly where I bought them. Sorry, my memory is shot.
They have been in use for at least 4 or 5 years without issue.
Hooper, I just stumbled across these from Mofoco:
http://www.mofoco.com/item/VW_Torque_Converter_Bolts_Used_All_Autostick_T2_T3_Fully_Auto/2970
Original German bolts $2 apiece, heck of a deal.
Thanks for the heads up on the bolts. When mine come in, I might just test them and make sure they withstand 20-25 ftlbs in a vise before installing in torque converter.
Out!! :)
(https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1766989.jpg)
Just drilled a groove in the top with a dremel tool and backed it out with a flathead.
Have a set of the good used German bolts on the way from the link I posted above.
Congrats on getting the stub out. Hopefully we both will get our cars rolling for a long time between repairs.
Sb,
Thank heavens no one locktited it (Lee - paging Lee)!.
Still a nasty thing to have to have to work on....good job.
I suspect the S/H TQ bolts will be of massively higher quality than 6 point zinc plated ungraded stuff.
Volkenstein
Hope so Volkenstein! Pulling the engine made it MUCH easier.
The link I posted above for the German bolts actually offers two kinds- the regular 6 point and the more uncommon 12 point head! I actually couldn't decide so I ended up ordering 4 of each ;D
Quote from: autonewbie on 12 April 2018, 02:47
Congrats on getting the stub out. Hopefully we both will get our cars rolling for a long time between repairs.
Good luck to us both!! Hope the diaphragm repair kit solves both our troubles!
Congrats!!
Received my "new" torque converter bolts today. Added a washer, put it in a vice screwed into a bolt. Attempted 20 ftlbs. Only made it to 9.9 ftlbs before the socket started stripping on the head. Tried two different bolts with two different sockets, (both snap on). Same result. Looks like I am ordering the used ones.
Also ordered a fuel pump rebuild kit. Ended up reusing half the old parts because of poor quality or incorrect design. Is there a go too place for quality replacement parts?
Dan
Not really- as far as the aftermarket online VW vendors go it's just really hit and miss. Some of it is decent quality and some of it is junk. You might try the samba classifieds or the parts section here-- also there are some vendors like Bugcity that sell quality used German stuff and even have a good selection of NOS parts but you'll pay premium price for them.
I happen to live pretty close by to a VW salvage yard that has always had whatever I was looking for, sometimes this guy asks very reasonable prices for his stuff and sometimes it's way high. I found an ultra-rare thermostat flap pull cable there that he only wanted $20 for. But i tried to buy an autostick control valve from him once and he wanted $100. Go figure...
That's why I was surprised to find those German TC bolts on the Mofoco website for $2 each- they're like $5+ everywhere else.
Honestly, that seems like a tremendous amount of torque for such a small non-hardened bolt. I have done mine a few times and do not torque them because the spec seemed erronious to me. I just make sure the threads are clean and dry and I tighten with a small ratchet.
I would bet that if you went to the hardware store and got a new hardened M8 bolt and nut and repeated the experiment you would get the same result. 20-22 ft.lbs always seemed to be an error to me. If you think about it, there isn't a great deal of stress on these four bolts if they are just tight. All of the forces on them are lateral and not axial (where torque is critical). The considerably larger (and hardened) connecting rod nuts only take 24 ft.lbs! The only time I have seen damage is when one comes off. I check routinely and mine and they always remain tight.
I wish I had a scientific recommendation for torque but 20-22 ft.lbs has to be very wrong. If you absolutely must torque them I'd go for around half of the spec. Any other thoughts out there?
Tom
You could be right Tom-
although I will say that I managed to torque my other bolts down to 18 ft/lbs with no problem (although I took it REAL slow.)
Remember that these bolts were cheap aftermarket bolts. The original German torque conveter bolts have an extra contoured and grooved washer that I can only think helps absorb some of the tightening by "biting" against the torque converter tabs and allows those bolts to take more stress than these cheaper aftermarket bolts. I will tell you that I used this same torque spec on a 72 super I bought (and resold) last year that came with the original German bolts and I had zero problems torquing them down to that spec. I DO suggest that you tighten them in incremental steps though just to be safe.
I did some experimenting on the topic a while back. I wanted to replace the TC to FP bolts with something a little more robust. I got some hardened hex bolts because it is difficult to strip them, both the threads and hex socket. Not usable even when cut down because they cannot be made to clear the inside of the bell housing. I tried a couple different options to no avail.
So, my guess is that VW got themselves in a spot and had to create or special order those bolts with the narrow head. With a head that small I think 12 points were necessary to get any significant torque on them.
I really do believe that the spec torque on those bolts is an error by at least X2. Look at any similar or larger bolts on the car and compare. As before, the rod nuts which are hardened, under much more stress, have much more contact area and a 24ft.lb spec. Others are similar. There is a fairly linear relationship between the size of bolts and their torque spec. The TC-FP bolts are off the charts for torque spec IMO. They are for a fairly low stress application. It would be interesting to search this site and the samba to see how many have had the threads stripped, broken the captive nut off or stripped the points of the bolt while torquing to spec.
The newer replacements. I have some and have tried them but did not use. They appear to be of softer steel and do not have a taper at the start of the threads so they are difficult to get started although I think you could grind a slight taper on the end like the OEM ones.
Tom
I got the 18 ft/lb spec from the Bentley manual, which is basically thought of to be the "official" VW service repair manual. Doesn't mean everything in there is correct though.
I posted about my broken bolt over on the samba as well, no one else chimed in saying they had the same issue-- course you have to consider that probably only a small handful of posters there either own or have worked on an autostick... had to straighten lots of them out about the hatred and misunderstandings about the autsotick in my early days over there... ::)
Yes, I haven't heard of anyone breaking off a Torque converter bolt before... I had a nut come loose...on a FLEXPLATE... maybe that was a first also... I had used LOCTITE on the bolts....!!!
Lee in Australia
Quote from: tmea on 16 April 2018, 01:46
I did some experimenting on the topic a while back. I wanted to replace the TC to FP bolts with something a little more robust. I got some hardened hex bolts because it is difficult to strip them, both the threads and hex socket. Not usable even when cut down because they cannot be made to clear the inside of the bell housing. I tried a couple different options to no avail.
So, my guess is that VW got themselves in a spot and had to create or special order those bolts with the narrow head. With a head that small I think 12 points were necessary to get any significant torque on them.
I really do believe that the spec torque on those bolts is an error by at least X2. Look at any similar or larger bolts on the car and compare. As before, the rod nuts which are hardened, under much more stress, have much more contact area and a 24ft.lb spec. Others are similar. There is a fairly linear relationship between the size of bolts and their torque spec. The TC-FP bolts are off the charts for torque spec IMO. They are for a fairly low stress application. It would be interesting to search this site and the samba to see how many have had the threads stripped, broken the captive nut off or stripped the points of the bolt while torquing to spec.
The newer replacements. I have some and have tried them but did not use. They appear to be of softer steel and do not have a taper at the start of the threads so they are difficult to get started although I think you could grind a slight taper on the end like the OEM ones.
Tom
Quote from: tmea on 16 April 2018, 01:46
I did some experimenting on the topic a while back. I wanted to replace the TC to FP bolts with something a little more robust. I got some hardened hex bolts because it is difficult to strip them, both the threads and hex socket. Not usable even when cut down because they cannot be made to clear the inside of the bell housing. I tried a couple different options to no avail.
So, my guess is that VW got themselves in a spot and had to create or special order those bolts with the narrow head. With a head that small I think 12 points were necessary to get any significant torque on them.
I really do believe that the spec torque on those bolts is an error by at least X2. Look at any similar or larger bolts on the car and compare. As before, the rod nuts which are hardened, under much more stress, have much more contact area and a 24ft.lb spec. Others are similar. There is a fairly linear relationship between the size of bolts and their torque spec. The TC-FP bolts are off the charts for torque spec IMO. They are for a fairly low stress application. It would be interesting to search this site and the samba to see how many have had the threads stripped, broken the captive nut off or stripped the points of the bolt while torquing to spec.
The newer replacements. I have some and have tried them but did not use. They appear to be of softer steel and do not have a taper at the start of the threads so they are difficult to get started although I think you could grind a slight taper on the end like the OEM ones.
Tom
Quote from: sb001 on 16 April 2018, 03:57
... had to straighten lots of them out about the hatred and misunderstandings about the autsotick in my early days over there... ::)
Yes, there were and probably are many people who don't understand anything about the autostick.. I just read where a disabled fellow in the UK had a type 3 fully automatic fitted to a beetle at great cost $$$$$$$$$$$$ as He had heard of the problems associated with the autostick....!!!!! He could have saved Himself a lot of Money and greif...as the job had to be redone as the first time it didn't really work.... People who know nothing about them say they were very slow compared to a manual...!!!! and many VW Mechanics who have never done a course on autosticks don't like to even touch them...
cheers
Lee in Australia