1974 auto stick wont go in gear - SEE REPLY NUMBER 4 -- ADDITION --

tasnc · 29 February 2012, 18:03

I bought a 1974 standard bug with an auto stick trans. The car has been setting for at least 9 years. I have replaced the plugs, condenser, points, rebuilt carb, new fuel pump and now the motor runs fine. My problem is the trans. I have replaced the 12mm hoses from the carb to control valve, control valve to can, from control valve to trans pancake and a small hose from control valve to carb. The car is up on jack stands off the ground. The car will go into gear sometimes and other times it won't. I get a grinding sound like the clutch not pushed in on a standard drive. I have adjusted the points on the shift rod, clicking when engaged in motor compartment sounds good. I did a test on the pancake, took the hose off at the pancake (car not running) place thumb over the nipple hole and could not pull the lever back, took thumb off hole and pulled back on the lever, placed fiinger over hole and it would not go forward, so i figure the pancake is ok. can anyone tell me what else i need to do. thanks

68autobug · 02 March 2012, 10:30

Hi
it sounds like the ]pancake] clutch servo may NOT be working
the control valve sounds like its working..
did You replace the hose with a hard hose, otherwise the vacuum can suck in the hose
or even suck in the internals of the hose.. if you can bend the hose and the center squashes in
then it may not be any good. I did use some good quality transmission hose years ago for a while..
I now use truck air hose.. orange/red colored...
You can buy repair kits for the clutch servo.. [a rubber diaphram and clamp]
when the solenoid on the control valve works, it allows vacuum from the vacuum tank
to suck the servo which then moves the clutch arm so You can change gears...
laying under the car... with someone moving the gears lever...
You should be able to see the clutch arm move back and forth..
normally, with the engine not going, ignition ON, You should be able to change gears about 6 times at least..
using vacuum from the tank... usually many more times...
If the clutch arm doesn't move... then either, the clutch servo isn;t working OR
the control valve isn't working...

LEE in Australia

tasnc · 02 March 2012, 15:25

Hey Lee thanks for the reply. I have read quite a bit on this forum and have gathered some good information about the autostick. the servo arm is working the clutch lever on the tranny case. I have tried adjusting it till i have about to pull my hair out. I read on one forum where you advised someone to loosen the bolt on the clutch arm and move it forward. i did that too, but that was on a 1968 bug? are they they the same. i have the neutural switch bridged now and can drive the car but i must shut the engine off to put it in gear and crank it back up and go. i can shift from L to 1 to 2 when the car is moving but i have to force it in each gear. someone told me my clutch plate might be gone. any advice will be greatly appreciated. i also have new good reinforced hose going to all parts so i dont think they are sucking together.

68autobug · 03 March 2012, 13:17

Hi
well, it seems You have the correct hoses so We can rule that out.
and the clutch servo is moving the clutch in & out..
having the neutral switch shorted out is a good ide. I have been going to install
a switch to do that if I need it.. One day, I reversed out, and couldn't select a gear, so I wacked it into drive 2
and went to get My dinner before macdonalds closed..lol A wire had come loose.. so it would have been good to switch
the reverse switch off.. and start the engine in gear.. The autostick clutches are either IN or Out so they don't wear out like normal clutches, and the pressure plate is only used for a few seconds each time...

ADDITION **** morning thoughts...lol

I had tried to adjust My clutch as per the workshop manuals, even made a couple of measuring tools, but I couldn't get it to work at all.. tried for weeks and weeks... eventually, I took a couple of My manuals to a local Mechanic friend and He said the clutch arm works in Reverse.. the clutch bearing on the end of the arm, actually PULLS the clutch pressure plate... it doesn't PUSH like most clutch bearings..

so, I loosened the clutch arm BOLT and pushed the ARM as far as it would go REARWARDS [TOWARDS THE BELL HOUSING]
and held it while I tightened the clutch arm bolt....
And when the arm moves 25mm -35mm [wild guess] FORWARDS - it is disengaging the clutch plate...
so this is the adjustment We are looking for...
have the adjuster adjusted as long as You can - Test - then tighten half a turn- test - then tighten half a turn - test then tighten again
until You can select REVERSE without crunching..
if You do the adjustment too far.. then the clutch bearing will be springing all the time
I believe.. so by doing the reverse thing, We should have freeplay on the clutch...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------My brain works better after a good nights sleep. lol

Yes towards the REAR of the car and then I adjusted the adjuster until I could select reverse with slight crunching then fine tuned it so it wouldn't crunch when selecting reverse.. I took the clutch servo OFF to do this.. many times.. [not sure why]
I've done this with different gearboxes... and the gearboxes are basically the same.. only real difference was the last ones had a park feature.. Some people have replaced clutch plates only to find the new ones weren't much thicker then the originals...lol

so. it may just be clutch adjustment...

LEE in Australia

PHOTO IS WRONG WAY ROUND.... ARM IS REARWARDS AND GETS PULLED FORWARDS.. LEE

tasnc · 03 March 2012, 14:58

Hey Lee, I made the measuring tools also and it didnt work either. When you say" loosened the clutch arm and pushed it forward as far as it would go" are you saying push it toward the front of the car or toward the motor? I also have approximately 1/2 to 3/4 inch slack on the clutch arm, is this normal? You said you took the servo off to do this. did you adjust it by hand preasure while under the car and someone shifting gears for you? also the control valve adjustment screw is screwed all the way down, is this normal. thanks

68autobug · 04 March 2012, 02:11

Hi

I have made an addition to the last post... AGAIN... LEE
I hope that will help You

cheers

LEE

tasnc · 05 March 2012, 00:02

if i loosen the bolt of the clutch rod on the tranny and push the clutch rod all the way forward (toward the front of the car) then it will hit my servo! is it normal for the control valve adjustment to be screwed all the way down? remember this is a 1974 auto stick. thanks

volkenstein · 05 March 2012, 00:21

Tasc,
No, loosen the bolt at the trans and move the level towards the REAR of the car. It also should be disconnected from the servo. You have to remember all the time - THIS IS A PULL CLUTCH - not push! Search a long post by Dfrommi...all this is in there.

CV screw all the way in? Not normal. 2 1/2 threads EXPOSED is the starting point. 1/2 turn either direction will alter shifting speed quite a lot. In a '74 your CV is fed directly from the fuse box. No iterfering nastiness like earlier cars.

HTH
Volkenstein.

tasnc · 05 March 2012, 01:01

thanks volkenstein, i will try this on the clutch rod tommorro, yea, this push pull thing is confusing me! The CV will be readjusted to the starting point on your recomendations also. thanks

68autobug · 05 March 2012, 10:32

Hi Guys,

Sorry for that BIG mistake

the lever gets pushed to the bellhousing as in the manuals... [rearwards] by Your hand
then tightened..

all the "Normal" measurements can't be used... not they worked anyways..lol
as You have found out...
the control valve shouldn't be screwed all the way in either..
You will find out when the small hose is connected correctly..
My car shifted very SLOWLY after fixing the small hose to the carby correctly
so, I adjusted it to where it should be and now shifts fast..
You can adjust it to Your own shifting pattern.. fast or slow or in between..

Thanks for Bringing to Our attention My Mistake Sean...

it hit me today when I was laying under the LHS rear axle and noted the clutch lever is pulled by the clutch servo.. forwards.
and where the clutch SERVO is situated.. and which way the adjuster moves etc..

its that photo at the bottom of this page that throws ME Every time... should have turned it around.. lol
photo that is... lol

cheers

LEE

Quote from: volkenstein on 05 March 2012, 00:21
Tasc,
No, loosen the bolt at the trans and move the level towards the REAR of the car. It also should be disconnected from the servo. You have to remember all the time - THIS IS A PULL CLUTCH - not push! Search a long post by Dfrommi...all this is in there.

CV screw all the way in? Not normal. 2 1/2 threads EXPOSED is the starting point. 1/2 turn either direction will alter shifting speed quite a lot. In a '74 your CV is fed directly from the fuse box. No iterfering nastiness like earlier cars.

HTH
Volkenstein.

tasnc · 07 March 2012, 22:33

hey guys

well i took the servo off, ran the adjustment out on both ends, i left about 4 threads in the adjuster on both ends. i loosened the bolt on the tranny that holds the clutch arm and pushed the arm toward the engine as far as it would go and tightened the bolt. i had my wife start the car while i was under it and try to put it in reverse. i adjusted the servo adjustment all the way out to all the way in and it still will not go in gear. QUESTION!!! CAN I USE A PRY BAR WITH THE MOTOR RUNNING, AND THE SERVO VACCUM HOOKED UP BUT NOT THE ADJUSTMENT SCREW, TO RELEASE THE CLUTCH. IN OTHER WORDS SHOULD I BE ABLE TO RELEASE THE CLUTCH WITH A PRY BAR OR HOW TUFF IS IT TO PUSH IT BACK.

volkenstein · 07 March 2012, 23:18

Tasnc,
You'll be crippled trying something like that. It is BRUTAL to move once all hooked up. Did you position the clutch arm according to spec?? They way you are supposed to do it is to set the servo arm to book spec measurements, undo the clutch arm on the tranny, make sure the servo is "at rest", neither in or out, then carefully move the clutch arm to THE FRONT of the car until you feel resistance. This is the take up point. It may well take a few goes. 8mm of clutch arm movement translates to 1mm of TO bearing movement. If you feel NOTHING, AT ANYPOINT, the T-O bearing/clutch arm may have some sort of issue. Actually, while you are there you can "feel" for the take up point by rotating the splined end of the clutch arm CLOCKWISE.

HTH
Volkenstein

CarlIseminger · 08 March 2012, 22:32

Not that I have any advice to add to the solution of the problem, but I adjusted my clutch take up (before I realized what was wrong) and it is VERY frustrating lying on your back, trying to remember which is "front" and which is "rear" or "in" and "out". But when you get close to the right adjustment, it doesn't take very much movement to make a HUGE difference.

My problem turned out to be a leaking seal that was causing the clutch plate to get wet and even tho it engaged, it acted like it wasn't because it was slipping so bad.

Just to be sure we have covered all the bases, I don't seem to see in this post that you actually were under the car and watched the servo pull/push the clutch arm back and forth? Just want to be sure that it is actually moving.

tasnc · 09 March 2012, 00:42

Thanks Carl for the reply, Yes I have been under the car and watched the servo work and pull the clutch arm toward the front of the car but it just grinds the tranny when you try to put it in gear. I do have a QUESTION for you or anyone esle who can help me. I have the servo on the work bench now , I took a measurment with servo at rest to find out how much the rod adjuster was moving when the servo was completely engaged (bottomed out). It only moved approximately 1/2 inch or 8mm. I was measuring at the edge of the adjuster hole, measuring the adjuster rod when it was in the work mode. Can anyone tell me if this is a correct measurment or is my servo BAD.

volkenstein · 09 March 2012, 13:26

Tasnc,
Your "At rest" isn't right somehow. you should be able to get 35-45 mm movement at the clutch arm/servo rod connection. I'll have to resuscitate my old computer and see if I kept some demo photo's (Dfrommi's thread again, or hell, even one of mine down in tech!!).

Since it is off, done a leakage test on it? Cover the vac spigot with a fat finger and try and pull or push the servo arm. It should not move one iota.

Even if you have a crappy camera phone, snap away like a Japanese tourist and post up.

Volkenstein